ROCOR-MP silent re: 4th of July

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Jean-Serge
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Post by Jean-Serge »

Of course, some American troops committed rapes but it was not the general case; of course some American troops had a bad behavior, but the liberation was mainly a good thing. As regards the German army, I cannot see how you support as an Orthodox a army obeying to a neo-pagan regime. Because nazism was simply neo-pagan and Hitler belonged to an esoteric neo-pagan group called Thule.

Politically speaking, I think that God made man free, even to sin. So the government must respect this individual freedom as long as it does not violate other people's freedoms. So politically speaking, I am liberal (European meaning of the word). Moreover, I remember that whan the Hebrews asked for a king whereas they were ruled by the Judges God warned them saying that their kings would make them suffer. And He was right. However, this Kingdom was legitimate as a real Theocracy, but this is the only theocracy that has never existed.

The other Orthodox monarchies were not theocracy directly established by God. The soverign was orthodox, that's all. But even if he was orthodox this did make his son become legiotimate simply because he was his son. In the Old Israel, the legitimacy was confirmed by God through the Prophets and by the success of the King. But nowadays there is no longer such ways no confirm it. So I would rather have a liberal republic or monarchy, with little power and preserving the basic freedom than an Orthodox king deciding everything for me whereas God made me free.

Priidite, poklonimsja i pripadem ko Hristu.

Pravoslavnik
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Anti-American Nonsense

Post by Pravoslavnik »

"Welcomed as liberators by whom? The reds who got to hang as many priests, monarchists, whoever else was annoying them in their show trials which amounted to be mere lynchings? Well it was the Germans who actually liberated the French from those thugs. Where do you believe the French and German dislike of Americans which I admit is much of the time over the top comes from?"

Theophan,

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   Do you really imagine that the French people were "liberated" by the Nazi's, and that the French people did not welcome the Americans as liberators in 1945?  Albert Camus, Sartre, De Gaulle??? If so, I frankly don't see why anyone on this board could, henceforth, accept anything that you say as credible. The modern day Germans dislike the Americans, in part, because of the idiocy of George W. Bush and his minions, and perhaps because we defeated their military machine after the Nazi's had conquered the European continent.  I say this, incidentally, as one who is, ethnically, a German-American.  (My grandfather only spoke German until age 10.)  Nonetheless, many Western Germans from the WWII generation--like Willy Brandt and Helmut Kohl--believed that the Americans, French, and British military had dealt with them decently in the post War period, and with clemency, through the Marshall Plan.  (The Western Allies had, fortunately, learned some things from the mistakes made at Versailles following World War I.)

   Do you not know that Hitler's openly published intention was to subject Europe and the world to the service of the "master race?"  Nothing less, my deluded "Orthodox" friend!  In the process of implementing Hitler's Satanic vision, the Nazis murdered millions of Europeans; Jews--including many French and German citizens--Gypsies, Slavs, Greeks, and many Orthodox Christians.  St. Nicholai Velimirovich, the Archbishop of Zica was, himself, incarceratd by the Nazis at Dachau during the war, and Hitler had a particular antipathy toward the Orthodox Serbs, insisting on bombing Belgrade heavily.  (He also ordered the retreating Nazi's to burn Paris, by the way--an order that was, fortunately, disobeyed.)

     As for "Eisenhower's holocaust," I must say that the whole thing sounds like some sort of nutty, right-wing, neo-fascist fiction.  I have personally known many Americans who fought in France and Germany during World War II--including my own father, two uncles, and two Orthodox Christian gentlemen from the ROCOR (who rank among the best men I have ever known, anywhere.)  I have never heard or read of American GI's raping women or pillaging French, Italian, or German communities.  My uncles and father always talked about how much they liked the Italian and French people and how these people shared wonderful meals and conversation with them.  Where in France did your relatives live, who give such a remarkably different account of the conduct of our American GI's during World War II?  And, by the way, did anyone in your family put their life on the line by storming the Nazi machine gun bunkers along the beaches at Normandy, or in southern France, to liberate the French people and the rest of Europe from the Nazi police state?  

     At the very least, you should have the decency to avoid slandering men who sacrificed their lives for your family.  At best, you might offer an apology for being so ungrateful to your American friends and benefactors from the World War II era.
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Benjamin W. C. Waterhouse
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Post by Benjamin W. C. Waterhouse »

GOCTheophan wrote:
benjaminw1 wrote:

Of course not, celebrating a masonic republican revolt against an anointed King????

:wink:

Well said.

But why the wink?

:| = True Orthodox smile.

T.

Ah very true dear Theophan

:|

"The Synod of Metropolitan Cyprian adheres wholly to the exact same ecclesiological and dogmatic principles as our Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia,"

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Benjamin W. C. Waterhouse
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Post by Benjamin W. C. Waterhouse »

And to get back to the point,

Theophan is right; there is a direct (and Masonic) demonic line from the "Age of Reason" through the American Rebellion, the French Revolution, the 1848 revolutions to Bolshevism/Nazism and 1917/1933.

The best of all bad human governments is absolute monarchy; do we elect Bishops and throw them out on a whim every 4 years ? I do not think so.

Orthodoxy is Hierarchial and not Congregational, as a Bishop once told me; and so should be Orthodox civil government.

(BTW I don't know why everyone from America keeps mentioning Churchill, perhaps because he is half American)

In Him
SB

"The Synod of Metropolitan Cyprian adheres wholly to the exact same ecclesiological and dogmatic principles as our Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia,"

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Jean-Serge
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Post by Jean-Serge »

benjaminw1 wrote:

Orthodoxy is Hierarchial and not Congregational, as a Bishop once told me; and so should be Orthodox civil government.

(BTW I don't know why everyone from America keeps mentioning Churchill, perhaps because he is half American)

In Him
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I think that some people fail to understand that the Orthodox state is the Church and not a political institution. But within the Church, the right of rebellion exists if the the bishops betray. Moreover, bishops used to be ELECTED.

An orthodox civil governement would suppose a state with everyone being orthodox. It is impossible! By the way I had many similar discussions with people from the Lamian parish in Paris advocating for monarchy. But when comes the moment to formulate a clear dorctrine and practical positions, they have nothing to say.

The questions are : who should be the monarch, who will designate him or her, when he or she dies, who will come to power i.e why to choose an hereditary monarchy. Which is the legitimacy of the son of the monarch? What about taxes, individual freedoms... Well... I am still waiting.

Priidite, poklonimsja i pripadem ko Hristu.

Pravoslavnik
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Reason, Revolution, and the Ridiculous

Post by Pravoslavnik »

"Theophan is right; there is a direct (and Masonic) demonic line from the "Age of Reason" through the American Rebellion, the French Revolution, the 1848 revolutions to Bolshevism/Nazism and 1917/1933."???!!

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Benjamin and Theophan are both absolutely wrong here--winks aside--and lack any meaningful intellectual credibility.  Who, with any minimal knowledge of the history of ideas and political theory would link demonic Naziism or Bolshevism with the rather remarkable and enduring political contributions to humankind of the men who drafted the American Constitution--Jefferson, Madison, Hamilton, Franklin, et. al.??  The American Constitution carefully preserves human rights, liberty, and dignity--including the right to practice and profess one's religious beliefs--while the Bolsheviks and Nazi's engaged in ad libidum murder of millions of individuals on the basis of race, religious beliefs, (including millions of Orthodox Christians) and ethnic identity.  Equating Naziism or Bolshevism with American constitutional democracy is like equating a T. Rex with Socrates.  Yes, they are both animals, and one of these animals was born after the previous one.  They both had arms, legs, and a head, ergo, by Benjamin and Theophan's twisted logic, they are exceedingly similar.  Well done, Theo and Benjamin!! In the future, I'll be certain to steer clear of the GOC or any other diocese that the likes of you two are involved in!

  By the way, dear Theophan, I am still waiting to hear what region of France your relatives are from--those who have accused our American World War II GI's of being rapists and pillagers.  Please let me know so that I can research the subject through the credible writings of someone outside of the GOC.
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Benjamin W. C. Waterhouse
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Post by Benjamin W. C. Waterhouse »

Is that the constitution that enforces infanticide and the promotion of homosexuality and filthy pornography and the banning of christianity in schools?

The American constitution is a deist masonic constuct, what is that symbol on the dollar bill again?

In Him
SB

"The Synod of Metropolitan Cyprian adheres wholly to the exact same ecclesiological and dogmatic principles as our Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia,"

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