Genuine GOC of America: A Proclamation on Ecclesiology

[Sean]

There was a controversey similar to what is being discussed in this thread, in HOCNA a few years ago. It was instigated by one or two newly-converted individuals in our Church who engaged in an Aristotelian syllogism with our hierarchs, and arrived at this same "light switch" theory. The problem with this theory is that it is identical with the papal heresy of created grace. Ecumenists are definitely outside of the Church, and there are certainly many milestones in recent Church history that we could guess to be the time when they lost their Orthodox Faith, but we would be second-guessing God.

The faith once delivered to the Saints, and transmitted to us from the Holy Fathers, Canons, Holy Tradition, and Church History constitutes the teachings of the Church, NOT WHAT SEEMS LOGICAL TO US.

Our hierarchs in their wisdom issued a statement in March of 2003 in response to this. It can be read at

http://www.homb.org/frameset-postings.htm

Click the link that says "Statement of March 2003." Also keep in mind that the economia applied to Ecumenists is for the purpose of bringing them into the True Church, and not validating them in their heresy.

[GOCTheophan]

There was a controversey similar to what is being discussed in this thread, in HOCNA a few years ago. It was instigated by one or two newly-converted individuals in our Church who engaged in an Aristotelian syllogism with our hierarchs, and arrived at this same "light switch" theory. The problem with this theory is that it is identical with the papal heresy of created grace. Ecumenists are definitely outside of the Church, and there are certainly many milestones in recent Church history that we could guess to be the time when they lost their Orthodox Faith, but we would be second-guessing God.

The faith once delivered to the Saints, and transmitted to us from the Holy Fathers, Canons, Holy Tradition, and Church History constitutes the teachings of the Church, NOT WHAT SEEMS LOGICAL TO US.

Sean, obviously if we take the Bible aswell as the teachings and experiance of the Church seriously Grace is uncreated but that uncreated Grace equally obviously either transforms the elements during the Divine Liturgy into the Body and Blood of Christ or it does not- there is no half way Eucharist. Orthodoxy transcends reason but it does not go aganist it- indeed our reasoning capacity is a gift given to us by God that we may be able to draw near Him.

HTM only broke away from the State Church of Greece after the lifting of the anathemas and not over the Calender question, after it did so it did not join with either branch of the Greek Orthodox Church. HOCNA comes out of ROCOR and not out of the Greek Old Calenderists and therefore feels that it does not have to take into account the anathema placed on the New Calenderists by the True Orthodox Bishops of Greece.

Similarily according to a translation of "Aganist False Union" I have that was published by HOCNA you believe that the MP fell away from Orthodoxy in 1970 therefore the anathemas of the Russian Church on the Sergianists also seem to be something that you are "beyond".

However I believe that Christ gave His Bishops the power of binding and loosing and that these anathemas ( on the New Calenderists and the Sergianists) reflect the Will of Almighty God in cutting off piosoned branchs from the True Vine, that they are the vioce of the Church. This is not "second guessing God" but following the vioces of His shepards.

Theophan.

[ioannis]

What was so special about 1935 was that after it made been made clear that the renovationists would not pull back from their destructive course they were justly cut off by a synod of Orthodox Bishops.

So then, before 1935 there was a "sick, or ailing" part of the Church and a healthy part, which, being walled off and still part of the same church, were helpless and were waiting for a council, which was required, to decide who was Orthodox and who was not. And then, hearing the pronouncement of the Orthodox bishops, the Holy Spirit, hanging on every word, pulled the disconnect lever on the new-calendarists and the lights went out without a flicker. At that very moment, every little old lady, who perhaps had not even heard of the pronouncment, was taking the bread and wine of schismatics to her condemnation. And all of the Orthodox Churches around the world who were in communion with the schismatics were instantly condemned, even Vladimir Roshinkov, the 95 year old man living 350 miles East of Krobitsgrad (pop. 65), an area which did not hear of the "new calendar" and the Soviet Church until 1962.

Does that sum up your view would you say?

[1937 Miraculous Cross]

Dear Ioannis,

you wrote:

And then, hearing the pronouncement of the Orthodox bishops, the Holy Spirit, hanging on every word, pulled the disconnect lever on the new-calendarists and the lights went out without a flicker.

I would hope the Lord would judge each of us individually, in which case those individuals who didn't know of the Calendar innovation despite the error of their bishops would not be condemned.
On the converse, when would you say the Grace of the Holy Spirit in the Mysteries of a given Church that had become schismatic or heretical is withdrawn? Who can say ultimately and with certainty? The synod of bishops have to speak out and denounce what is wrong. In 1935 the Holy Synod did just that, and it is my personal belief that those knowingly in error were deprived of sacramental Grace.

In your example of the 95 y/o Russian man, are we to conclude by your inference that "Jane Doe" in the Roman Catholic Church who had never heard of the Eastern Orthodox Church and who was never aware of the heresies of her church still receives valid Mysteries full of Grace? I don't think you believe that. So, perhaps it is not a "light switch' event for those in ignorance, but perhaps it is for those who transgress in full knowledge of their schism or heresy.

in Christ,
Nectarios

[George Australia]

I would hope the Lord would judge each of us individually, in which case those individuals who didn't know of the Calendar innovation despite the error of their bishops would not be condemned.

But how does this work in the case of Sacramental Grace? Are you saying that the laity in New Calendar Churches who "don't know of the calendar innovation" still receive the Body and Blood of Christ in Holy Communion, but those who do know, do not receive the Body and Blood of Christ, but merely bread and wine?

In 1935 the Holy Synod did just that, and it is my personal belief that those knowingly in error were deprived of sacramental Grace.

And how do we know who was "knowingly in error"? Is an heretic only someone who knows he is an heretic? And when, in the history of the Church has a "Synod" of three bishops been able to decide for the entire Church who is and isn't in the Orthodox Church?

In your example of the 95 y/o Russian man, are we to conclude by your inference that "Jane Doe" in the Roman Catholic Church who had never heard of the Eastern Orthodox Church and who was never aware of the heresies of her church still receives valid Mysteries full of Grace?

You're referring here to a schism, not to heresy. Think about it: the filioque heresy existed in the Latin Church for two centuries prior to the schism. I am sure you agree that the filioque is an heresy and an innovation, but are you saying that the Churches in the West which held this doctrine prior to the Schism of 1054 were deprived of Sacramental Grace?

So, perhaps it is not a "light switch' event for those in ignorance, but perhaps it is for those who transgress in full knowledge of their schism or heresy.

Again, we have this strange Pneumatology that the Holy Spirit descends into a particluar Chalice or Font or Chrism etc for some and not for others.....Either He descends or He does not- take your pick, and stop trying to sit on the fence with arguments that have more holes than a colander.

[GOCTheophan]

. In 1935 the Holy Synod did just that, and it is my personal belief that those knowingly in error were deprived of sacramental Grace.

Dear Nectarius,

This is old ROCOR nonsense- please forgive the harshness of my words- and reminds me of someone in my parish who believes the Offical Church has Grace but that we only have "more" Grace. If the Body and Blood of Christ is present in the chalice than everybody who Communes takes into themselves the same Grace though obviously not everyone will "put it too work" on the same level and some may even Commune to their condemnation.

The old ROCOR supersition that in the Soviet parishes those who were worthy recieved the Sacrament while those who were not didnt has no support in the Fathers or the Tradition of the Church. If Sacramental Grace isnt present on the Altar than nobody Communes but the Lord can have mercy and save those there who acted in good faith or through ignorance. If it is present than everybody Communes but heretics and the unrepentent do so their condemnation.

What about the millions of Roman Catholics many of whom have never heard of Orthodoxy- do they Commune because they act in ignorance?

Remember the Holy Synod waited more than 10 years hoping that their would be a turn around before they acted.

This idea that the Eucharist on Altars slowly fades from being the Body of Christ into being mere bread and wine is bizzare when you actually sit down and think about it.

Theophan.

[George Australia]

And as much as I disagree with Theophan's opinion of which side of the schism is still the Church, I appreciate the honesty of his ecclesiology. There is no escaping the fact that if a group of Bishops declare a schism, then one side of the schism is no longer the Church, and therefore, it's Mysteries are no longer Mysteries but simply social rituals which impart no Grace, and are no different to saluting the flag or blowing out candles on a birthday cake.