What's Your Past And Present?

OrthoDoc · Post by **OrthoDoc** » Fri 18 July 2003 11:33 am

I certainly don't want to get into another jurisdictional war here but my response was addressed more to the fact that Anastasios seems to be still undecided as to where or what he wants to be! And, is using his wife as a scapegoat for his situation.

If he is so convinced Orthodoxy is the truth then nothing should be stopping him from converting to Orthodoxy no matter what jurisdiction he choses! Nothing should be stopping him from doing what has to be done to partake of the 'Lord's meal' within an Orthodox Catholic Church. Prior to his marriage his wife knew of his intentions to study at St Vlad's and his interest in Orthodoxy. So these issues should have been discussed then.

What I get in reading some of his posts in the past is that we should all learn to get along because its all relatively the same between the RCC and the OCC. The minor difference are just theologumenia! Ain't so!

As far as jurisdictional issues and OrthodoxyorDeath bashing the OCA, I purposely stay out of all the other folders for that purpose. He's entitled to his opinion...right, wrong, or indifferent. I may not respect what he says but I sure respect his right to say it!

I recognize both the validity and canonical status of ROCOR though I don't agree with some of their stands on certain issues. But, then again, I don't always agree with the OCA stand on certain issues.

At this point I'm not sure he really answered my question which could be a simple 'yes' or 'no'

I think paradosis stated it much better than I. Because he stated all the points I was trying to make.

Orthodoc

Anastasios · Post by **Anastasios** » Fri 18 July 2003 11:54 am

Orthodoc:

I just don't get this weird fixation you have with me but...

I am not using my wife as a scapegoat--that's about the most insensitive thing you've said since...well since the last time you wrote me! haha

I'm sure as a bachelor you wouldn't know this but one must respect his wife and not alientate her. If I make too sudden of a move it might turn her off from Orthodoxy forever. It is much better to wait a few more years and get her to convert than to convert now and lose her forever. Diplomacy carries over to the Church, too.

Nothing will stop me from becoming Orthodox, but my wife isn't something, she is SOMEONE and people (especially one's wife) have a right to be respected and loved. My wife has serious concerns about Orthodoxy and it is my duty to answer them and go over them with her. If that takes her 2 years then that is just what it will take. I don't answer to YOU, Bob, I answer to GOD and to my wife.

Is my ORTHODOX spritual father wrong for giving me the advice he did, then?

So in summary, I can either go with 1) my conscience, my wife, God, and my spiritual father, or 2) some guy on the internet who I have only met once for less than an hour who is exceptionally rude online and who mouths off about things he doesn't understand. Hmmm...I'll go with #1.

anastasios

OrthodoxyOrDeath · Post by **OrthodoxyOrDeath** » Fri 18 July 2003 12:45 pm

Orthodoc,

I am glad you respect my right to speak my views, even though, as you say, you don't respect what I am saying - just as I don't respect what the OCA says. And I'm sure you respect me as a person because I know I respect you.

One of the things the OCA says which I don't respect, is that Anastasios is already baptized. So then, if the RC's have Grace in their "baptism" then is it such a leap to think they also have Grace in their "communion"? It is no wonder why the OCA is telling Anastasios to receive "communion" at the Latin "church". You may consider, according to the views of the OCA, explaining to Anastasios if he is joining what you think is the Church, or just changing "rites" to a "fuller faith" and a "fuller baptism".

So perhaps your disagreement in faith is with the OCA and not so much with Anastasios.

I have a great deal of sympathy for him, as Saint Isidore says: "Just as the fishermen hide the hook with bait and covertly hook the fish, similarly, the crafty allies of the heresies cover their evil teachings and corrupt understanding with pietism and hook the more simple, bringing them to spiritual death."

And I am not saying this sarcasticly in any way; this is the way it looks from what I can see.

OrthoDoc · Post by **OrthoDoc** » Fri 18 July 2003 12:45 pm

Anastasios:

My question regarding Communion is a very valid one which just requires a 'yes' or 'no' answer! It is pertinent because it is a question or a pledge you will have to take, if or when you, convert from the Byzantine Catholic Church to the Orthodox Catholic Church.

It is asked by my own priest (himself a convert from the Byzantine Catholic Church) of every Byzantine and Ukrainian Catholic that converted to Orthodoxy in our parish.

Why would you be so hesitant to give a simple 'yes' or 'no' if you are so convinced Orthodoxy is the true Church?

Just remember, if you answer 'yes' and then dishonor it you will have to answer for it!

Orthodoc

OrthoDoc · Post by **OrthoDoc** » Fri 18 July 2003 12:58 pm

[And I'm sure you respect me as a person because I know I respect you.]

I most certainly do which is why I will not respond to your post and risk the possibility of getting into a jurisdictional bashing segment. As Orthodox we are brothers in the faith!

My concern is with the Communion issue not the baptismal issue. All I asked for was a simple 'yes' or 'no'! The hesitancy makes me wonder if this person is ready to accept Orthodoxy as 'the truth' or only a version of 'the truth'. If he really believes what he calims there should be a resounding 'YES' without pause.

Orthodoc

Anastasios · Post by **Anastasios** » Fri 18 July 2003 1:30 pm

Look Bob I am not hestitating to do anything. I am just letting you ramble on and on and make yourself look like more of fool. I told you in the first post "why would I become Orthodox only to return to Byzantine Catholic communion?" which is a good enough answer. You being a smart man I am sure knew that that means "no" as in "no I would not go back."

I want your yes or no answer now, Bob: is my spiritual father (Orthodox) wrong for giving me the advice he did? YES or NO? And why are you hesitating to answer? Is it perhaps because you know if you answer he is wrong then you are giving OOD's point of view validity??

anastasios

OrthoDoc · Post by **OrthoDoc** » Fri 18 July 2003 2:39 pm

[I want your yes or no answer now, Bob: is my spiritual father (Orthodox) wrong for giving me the advice he did? YES or NO? And why are you hesitating to answer? Is it perhaps because you know if you answer he is wrong then you are giving OOD's point of view validity?? ]

I have avoided answering only because I know OOD will use it to turn this whole discussion into an anti OCA jurisdictional bashing which I am trying to avoid.

However, since you have asked I will answer and ignore any tirades from OOD or anyone else for that matter! The answer is NO! I think the advice is sound for the time being. Until you are ready to FULLY ACCEPT Orthodoxy as the true faith to the degree that no one can stop you (including your wife) from converting and receiving its Sacraments, it is the best solution.

I see no reason for rebaptistism because I believe that when I recite the Creed and profess 'I BELIEVE IN ONE BAPTISM FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS' that is exactly what it means. Because I believe what Orthodoxy teaches - That we have the fullness of the Faith handed down to us by Christ. I believe that Orthodoxy teaches that it is only within the Orthodox Church that the Holy Spirit dwells totally and completely. But it is not for us to judge where the Holy Spirit also dwells or to what degree. That is for God alone.

I'm Orthodox because I can only be satisfied with 100% of the truth. Anything else is unacceptable to me. That's why for me to trade Orthodoxy for Roman Catholicism would be like trading a diamond for Zircon. Or to trade it for Protestantism would be like trading a diamond for a rhinestone. No one would stop me from professing Orthodoxy! Like OOD I would gladly die for it! OOD is like a brother who I disagree with but recognize as a family member and love as such. We are Orthodox!

I'm not going to judge the validity of the Sacraments of either the RCC or the Lutheran Church. That is also for God alone. I would not take Communion in either Church because my Church forbids it. And also, I believe to do so would be to profess belief in a 'Common Union' which I do not recognize or believe is there. There are too many doctrinal issues to profess a 'Common Union".

Hope I've answered your question.

Orthodoc

(Who will avoid any jurisdictional outbursts by OOD or anyone else)