Holy Thorn of Glastonbury

[AndyHolland]

Ebor,

Thank you for the clarification on Malthus. However, the site I provided claimed it to be ironic. The issue is the teaching - not the intent. The path to hell is paved with good intentions.

The fact is the Malthusian Doctrine is intrinsically evil. After all, it is his teaching that is being talked about.

Consider this quote from Darwin:
"Malthus has discussed these several checks, but he does not lay stress enough on what is probably the most important of all, namely infanticide, especially of female infants, and the habit of procuring abortion."

http://members.optusnet.com.au/exponent ... althus.htm

Of course, perhaps Darwin is not advocating this - perhaps he is. There are a great many leaders who took this stuff very seriously. There are three pillars of Darwin's evolutionary theory:

1. Gradualism
2. Malthusian Doctrine
3. Natural Selection

Gradualism is incorrect given repeated sequences of mass extinction. The pre-cambrian period, which is most of Earth history was used to process the atmosphere to provide for oxygen for the more complex forms of life. Then there was an explosion of species, as there were after several mass extinctions.

If Darwin didn't take Malthusian doctrine seriously, why did he include it as part of his theory? Again, the Malthusian doctrine is generally incorrect for human beings. Is it correct for animals? The doctrine applied to man, like the second title of Darwin's work when applied to man - is evil. The Population control crowd is deadly serious. The racists who used Darwin's "the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life" to promote their agendas were very serious. Darwin's Descent of Man is very dark.

As to the science of natural selection, minor variations must be fed by an abundance of logic in the genetic code. Where did the Genetic code come from?

Stretching "natural selection" to "ORIGEN" was silly. Nobody has a clue as to why or how variations occur - nor do they understand the many factors (acts of God) that contribute to intelligent human life.

If you want primary information on the Holy Thorn, go to Glastonbury and see for yourself. One could endlessly debate you. It has been well record for 800 years - again, look up the 1191 revision of Mamesbury's history of the abbey if you want 800 years of Tropical year tree tracking data.

As to the stupidity of scientists and such - myself especially - don't overestimate the intelligence of sinners. Christ forgave us our ignorance - we know not what we do - ignorance really is bliss. St. Maximos points out that we are profoundly ignorant - we can only experience God.

Moronically yours,

Andy Holland

[Ebor]

Irony is a useful tool in literature to get a point across. Humour also can be used to make a point. Understanding it's use and that a speaker/writer is not serious in believing what they have proposed can take practice in understanding when it is being used and to what purpose.

What was the context of Prince Phillip's remark? It sounds like he was joking. Jokes aren't generally meant seriously either.

You claimed the Holy Thorn as proof of EO. You have not supported this claim. If that were a basis of Faith, and your claim is not true, then what does that do to Faith? Have YOU personally been to Glastonbury and seen the Holy Thorn bloom on "Old Calendar Christmas"?

Should I ever become EO, I hope I will not put forth unsubstantiated claims to somehow make my Church look "Right". Jesus or a plant? I will follow Jesus.

How is a request for data and proof an "endless debate"? I do not believe your proposition regarding the Holy Thorn of Glastonbury. You have not established any authority that I should.

Why did you start this thread in the first place? Why should we believe the statement without proof? Extraordinary claims (like a plant following the Julian Calendar/EO Christmas) require at least ordinary proof.

In software and other engineering hypotheses and theories require testing and proof. So too, other aspects of life.

As to the stupidity of scientists and such - myself especially - don't overestimate the intelligence of sinners. Christ forgave us our ignorance - we know not what we do - ignorance is bliss. St. Maximos points out that we are profoundly ignorant - we can only experience God.

Neither should one underestimate the intelligence of ones audience or expect them to swallow unusual assertions without support. God created our brains and our curiosity and the Universe for us to study and learn about and marvel at. I would guess that St. Maximos is referring to ignorance of God, not of the rest of our world.

Ebor

[AndyHolland]

Dear Ebor,

...
You claimed the Holy Thorn as proof of EO.

It was stated the Holy Thorn confirmed the wisdom of the Orthodox Calendar and the other annual miracle of Christianity, the Holy Fire - also closely associated with Joseph of Arimathea (it was his grave after all).

You have not supported this claim. If that were a basis of Faith, and your claim is not true, then what does that do to Faith? Have YOU personally been to Glastonbury and seen the Holy Thorn bloom on "Old Calendar Christmas"?

I don't need to - I looked it up in a Britannica. If you want primary source information, go see the tree for yourself.

Should I ever become EO, I hope I will not put forth unsubstantiated claims to somehow make my Church look "Right". Jesus or a plant? I will follow Jesus.

Good! I was not making my Church look right - I was pointing out to those of a currently different Orthodox Church (I am Antiochian) that their efforts to preserve the Calendar are appreciated. That is all. It is their website.

If the Lord in response to a prayer by Joseph of Arimathea caused the tree to grow and bloom - as Grace to increase our faith, what does that say when we ignore such Grace? Are we being faithful to all He provides?

Perhaps the ambiguity is due to falsehood as you have asserted it might. Perhaps the ambiguity is due to abundant Grace. Honestly, I do believe the tree blooms on Old Christmas, and I do believe that until WWII, the animal's in the region knelt at midnight.

If you take this as a reason to become EO, I agree, its a bad one. Don't take my word for it - come and see.

However, the experience of Holy Orthodoxy has taught me directly, these things not only do happen - but they are wonderful to behold.

In software and other engineering hypotheses and theories require testing and proof. So too, other aspects of life.

That's right! And so the followers of Darwin who teach our children swill about the Origin of life should have to do the same thing I do day in and day out. Yet they will see fit to spend my tax dollars on godless education and then teach the Bible and creation as "myth".

As to the stupidity of scientists and such - myself especially - don't overestimate the intelligence of sinners. Christ forgave us our ignorance - we know not what we do - ignorance is bliss. St. Maximos points out that we are profoundly ignorant - we can only experience God.

Neither should one underestimate the intelligence of ones audience or expect them to swallow unusual assertions without support. God created our brains and our curiosity and the Universe for us to study and learn about and marvel at. I would guess that St. Maximos is referring to ignorance of God, not of the rest of our world.

Your right. I am sorry if by insulting the intelligence of anyone and not being compassionate towards others. You have correctly censored me for such.

Andy Holland
Somerset PA

[Ebor]

Dear Ebor,

...
You claimed the Holy Thorn as proof of EO.

It was stated the Holy Thorn confirmed the wisdom of the Orthodox Calendar and the other annual miracle of Christianity, the Holy Fire - also closely associated with Joseph of Arimathea (it was his grave after all).

And if the Holy Thorn does not bloom on "Old Calendar Christmas" as was claimed, it does not "confirm the wisdom" of the EO?

You have not supported this claim. If that were a basis of Faith, and your claim is not true, then what does that do to Faith? Have YOU personally been to Glastonbury and seen the Holy Thorn bloom on "Old Calendar Christmas"?

I don't need to - I looked it up in a Britannica. If you want primary source information, go see the tree for yourself.

Britannica is an estimable encyclopedia, but that does not make it infallible. Without corroboration, this is a pious legend and not a Fact. There is a difference.

Should I ever become EO, I hope I will not put forth unsubstantiated claims to somehow make my Church look "Right". Jesus or a plant? I will follow Jesus.

Good! I was not making my Church look right - I was pointing out to those of a currently different Orthodox Church (I am Antiochian) that their efforts to preserve the Calendar are appreciated.

And if the Holy Thorn does not bloom on Christmas according to the old calendar, then saying that is does is not True. Your first post certainly seemed to be saying that the bloom "proved" that EO was the Right Way.

If the Lord in response to a prayer by Joseph of Arimathea caused the tree to grow and bloom - as Grace to increase our faith, what does that say when we ignore such Grace? Are we being faithful to all He provides?

There are many more Graces from God then just one plant. How is it "ignoring" something if the thing is not true?

Perhaps the ambiguity is due to falsehood as you have asserted it might. Perhaps the ambiguity is due to abundant Grace.

If it is due to falsehood then why should it continue to be put forth as Truth? I do not understand how abundant Grace and ambiguity go together. Could you clarify please?

Honestly, I do believe the tree blooms on Old Christmas

Based on an encyclopedia? And if you went to Glastonbury and it did not, what then?

If you take this as a reason to become EO, I agree, its a bad one. Don't take my word for it - come and see.

I've been to many EO services and churches. I have been in EO discussion fora for many years, the first being on GEnie, when it was all black and white text. I have seen Good and Bad, Charity and the lack thereof, and much more.

And I have read of or seen miraculous things among the Anglicans and other Churches.

That's right! And so the followers of Darwin who teach our children swill about the Origin of life should have to do the same thing I do day in and day out. Yet they will see fit to spend my tax dollars on godless education and then teach the Bible and creation as "myth".

It seems to me that you are being driven by some things that we on the forum do not know of. You seem very angry or upset. I'm sorry.

I do not mean to "censure" you. I'm sorry if it comes across that way. But neither do I think that blanket condemnation of humanity or scientists or any other group of people is fair or right.

Ebor

[AndyHolland]

The link for this is provided below. I hope I am not violating a copyright:

[i]The legend assumes more form by the 12th century writings of historian William of Malmesbury (c. 1095 - 1143 A.D.), who, in two books, wrote much of the history of Glastonbury Abbey. In his "Gesta Regum Anglorum" ("Acts of the Kings of the English"), William comments about the "Old Church" in Glastonbury:

"The church of which we are speaking - from its antiquity called by the Angles, by way of distinction 'Ealde Chiche', that is the 'Old Church' of wattle work at first, savoured somewhat of heavenly sanctity even from its very foundation, and exhaled it over the whole country, claiming superior reverence, though the structure was mean..." (Lewis, p. 68)

While William stops short of linking the "Old Church" with Joseph of Arimathea, or even the first century, he does verify its antiquity, and the fact that the original church was built of wattle. William goes on to suggest that the Old Church was built in the second century by papal envoys Faganus and Deruvianus, but adds the following comment:

"There are documents of no small credit, which have been discovered in certain places to the following effect: 'No other hands than those of the disciples of Christ erected the Church of Glastonbury'. Nor is it dissonant from probability: for if Philip, the Apostle, preached to the Gauls, as Freculfus relates in the fourth chapter of his seventh book, it may be believed that he planted the word on this side of the channel also." ("King Arthur's Avalon", Ashe, p. 42)[/i]
http://www.sundayschoolcourses.com/joseph/joscont.htm

[AndyHolland]

"Some Catholic areas even produced their martyrs for the Old Calendar. The Anglican Church refused the Gregorian Calendar on these grounds, in addition to its anti-papalism. This is why there are still some Anglican parishes that celebrate Christmas on January 6th to this day, especially in Wales and Scotland that refers to it as "Yule."

The Christmas Thorn of Glastonbury continues to flower on January 6th or 7th and it is at this time, and not on December 25th, that the Thorn is cut and sent as a special Christmas present to Queen Elizabeth the Second. " - from Dr. Alexander Roman, Ukrainian Catholic. [Ed. Note: the Thorn that the cuttings were taken from died in 1991, a sibling from the original thorn, cut down by a Puritan in the Reformation, still survives on Wirral hill - as well as one on the grounds of Glastonbury Abbey just behind the eastern wall of the ancient St. Patrick's church.

http://orthodox-okie.blogspot.com/2005/ ... irral.html
[/i]

[Ebor]

Thank you for the links. I have encountered Mr. Adams and Dr. Roman on-line before. The Sunday school lessons from the Presbyterian gentleman are new to me, but a good collection of legendary material with sources noted (always a Good Thing). These are still second hand reports and further queries as to where Dr. Roman got his information (an encyclopedia for example) would be in order. For example, it would be helpful to have the names of Anglican parishes that celebrate Christmas (as opposed to Epiphany) in January.

it is interesting to note that in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle (A primany source for information of early English history) there is no mention of Joseph of Arimathea. The earliest reference to Christianity in Britain is from the year A.D. 189

"....This year Eleutherius undertook the
bishopric of Rome, and held it honourably for fifteen winters.
To him Lucius, king of the Britons, sent letters, and prayed that
he might be made a Christian. He obtained his request; and they
continued afterwards in the right belief until the reign of
Diocletian."

A later record is: "A.D. 283. This year suffered Saint Alban the Martyr."
St. Alban being often called the "Proto-martyr" of English Chistianity.

Ebor