St Pauls' baggage

[TomS]

FYI:

Based upon recommendations from Nik on this board and anastasios over at OC.Net, I ordered the following books today:

"The Way to Nicaea (The Formation of Christian Theology, V. 1)"
John Behr;Paperback; $16.95

"The Lives of the Holy Apostles: Saints Peter, Paul, Andrew, James ... from the Menology of St. Dimitri of Rostov in Russian and the Great Synaxaristes of the Orthodox Church in greek"
Holy Apostles Convent;Hardcover; $21.00

And because it was on my wish list for a while --
"Writings from the Philokalia on Prayer of the Heart"
E. Kadloubovsky;Paperback; $13.97

I WAS hoping to receive a recommendation from OOD, but I guess he is too busy with his Presidential campaign to help an Orthodox brother.

[Protopriest Dionysi]

Because he was a man and therefore imperfect.

We have saints in the church whose complete teachings are not accepted. In some areas they were considered wrong.

Yes, but their writtings in error are not considered Holy Scripture. It seems as if the problem/issue/or opportunity you are haiving is with the Tradition-Revelation-Inspiration-of the Church. I know you made a tongue in cheek statement about Nicholas being like an inquisitor wanting you to beleive that the Earth is the centre of the uiniverse; but you on the other hand seem to react as if you are the centre and want the scripture to "bow" or "fit" your world view. St. Paul seems to see things differently than you do, so he must be wrong and you will tell us why.

This may seem harsh, but I do dare to say that some one who uses the term Orthodox should at the very least be able to believe in the fundamental teachings of the Church. I do not even see a problem with questions or having a problem with understanding, but the general dismissal of inspiration and guidance that you show towards the Church and her Traditions seems to pattern that of liberal Protestants or Liberal Orthodox jurisdictions like the GOA who have lost their way.

in Christ;
Priest Dionysi

[Protopriest Dionysi]

Surely you do not consider the Sacred Scriptures to be errant, do you?

Yes, taken as a WHOLE the bible IS sacred scripture, but even the church will admit that it is not to be taken literally, right?

As a WHOLE St. Pauls writings may be sacred, but his ideas on women were formed by his Orthodox Jewish background and I believe are inconsistent with the inclusiveness of our Lord.

No, where did you read that the Church teaches this? Where did you read of this concerning St. Paul, or is this just your opinion? If it is, are you asking us to accept your point of view over the that of the Church and Saint Paul?

In Christ,
Priest Dionysi

[Protopriest Dionysi]

As I said in my original post, I see no areas where Jesus makes any attempt to NOT include women in everything he does. He even speaks to the woman at the well who is flabbergasted that a Jewish man would talk to her. And don't use the argument that it was just because she was a Gentile.

And I said before -- if this was SO IMPORTANAT that women cover their heads and not even be allowed to SPEAK in church, don't ya think that it would have been mentioned by Him somewhere? Or at least the others?

All of these ideas come with St. Paul from Orthodox Judiasm.

This is a very liberal Protestant argument that then fights to include woman priests, bishops et al. Orthodoxy does not seperate the teaching of the Holy Church from that of the Lord. Inspiration comes from God through the Holy Spirit. So, we see the teachings of the Church through our Lord's words and the Church whom he created and appointed to rule over us (and you) and we should be in submission to this.

In Christ,
Priest Dionysi

[Protopriest Dionysi]

I am Orthodox. Though I am not sure you would consider me so since I am GOA

I ask questions, that is all.

No, more than ask questions, you add non-Orthodox opinions. I can see why you would question why others might see you as non-orthodox since you are in the GOA. The GOA's way leads many people to the same sort of alley as you have been brought into. An alley where one is spiritually rapped of their faith and made to see things as non orthodox and to believe less in Scripture than they do in their own thoughts and feelings. The Ecumenism that the GOA participates brings them closer to the Protestants they try to entice than it brings the Protestant to Orthodoxy. GOA Churches are collecting the trappings and ideas of Protestants and not the other way around. They have departed from the Church in their belief and practices and openly retain the name of Orthodoxy.

I do pray that these tough words are not seen as to be mean, but just straightforward. Your thoughts are symptoms of wrong (non-Orthodox) belief. St. Paul, women, ect. are not the problems. The problem is a lack of knowledge concerning True Orthodoxy. If you really do not think so, just read some very basic books on the Orthodox faith and see how it differs.

In Christ,
Priest Dionysi

[Protopriest Dionysi]

O Please! Not at all! I am simply questioning ONE teaching of St. Paul. You are reading way too much into this.

Not correct. Scripture is being questioned, St. Paul and his teachings are being questioned, the Church and her teachings are being questioned, and Orthodoxy is being questioned. For a non-Orthodox these questions are not so troublesome, but for one who seems is saying that they are Orthodox this is a terrible problem. It is a problem of faith.

[Protopriest Dionysi]

But the GOA is Orthodox. Right?

No. How could one say that those who do not believe in Orthodoxy are Orthodox? Your own questions should reveal this to you. You seem to only want to question and not learn. When you are told of a good source you then question about this also. This is not so much a problem; the problem is the lack of faith in the Church, which preserves the Traditions as handed down from the Apostles (this includes St. Paul).