Change in ROCOR?

[Julianna]

One can accord them the dignity of being (in one's own opinion) wrong without having to shove one's own opinion down their throats..

:ohvey: Truth's not an opinion. Orthodoxy's Truth.

[Seraphim Reeves]

Nektarios,

My road to the Orthodox Church was different, but reading about the Balamand agreement while I was still in the Catholic Church did open my mind to the idea of Orthodoxy...

Fair enough. Do you agree with the Balamand Accord?

Seraphim

[Nektarios14]

Seraphim,

No, I do not agree with Balamand or the ecumenical movement in general. But the agreement did cause me to look further into Orthodoxy.

I think there is a place for a positive kind of ecumenism though (If I remember correctly even the ROCOR was in the WCC at one time) where Orthodoxy is told about, but nothing like joint prayer would take place. I also think there are many areas with Non-Orthodox and Orthodox should work together like the pro-life movement.

Nektarios

[OrthodoxyOrDeath]

No, I do not agree with Balamand or the ecumenical movement in general. But the agreement did cause me to look further into Orthodoxy.

Νεκτάριος,

Of course the Holy Fathers argue that you still have not joined the Church, but only the Ecumenists.

Now how about we list the thousands and thousands of people who have been ripped from the bosom of the Church, or have lost faith in anything because the ecumenists?

And how about those millions, perhaps billions, of people who have been taught by the ecumenists that there really is no reason to become Orthodox since they are the same Church!? How shall we quantify what only God knows?

I was almost one of those people. I almost came to the conclusion Orthodoxy was a sham when I saw that new-calendar leaders obviously believed in some fuzzy pluralistic church. After all, why then be Orthodox at all? Why not Lutheran? Its much easier.

It is clear you believe your leaders to be liars and theives. So why then do you support them?

[Nektarios14]

Ορθοδοξια η Θανατος,

If my Patriarch believes the things you say he does, why does he call the Latins heretics and recieve converts from the Latin Church? My own Bishop knows I am convert from the Latins and doesn't disapprove of my conversion.

Now how about we list the thousands and thousands of people who have been ripped from the bosom of the Church, or have lost faith in anything because the ecumenists?

That is sad and a tradgedy but is it heresy? How is it any different than the extreme secularizations of the Russian Church during the 18th and 19 centuries that caused thousands to lose thier faith? Or the poorly implemented Nikonian reforms that caused millions to go into schism with the Orthodox Church? Satan uses these failings to incite pride and cause people to judge the church, as happened in the Donastist shcism.

After all, why then be Orthodox at all? Why not Lutheran? Its much easier.

When you judge the Orthodox Church, you fail to look at it really says. Judge Metropolitain Hierotheos of Nafpatkos, Elder Porphyrios of Attica, Elder Iakovos of Evia, Elder Ephraim or the Athonites.

You could easily get the impression that the Russian Church of the above mentioned era was completely devoid of the spiritual life because numourous bishops even considered the Optina Elders to be in great prelest. Monasticism was on the decline and the spiritual life was not abundant. Saint Paisius was even exiled from his own nation!
But... a closer look reveals such luminaries as Saint Seraphim of Sarov, Saint Theodore of Sanaxar, Elder Nazarius of Valaam, the Optina Elders et. al.

You have seen what you have wanted to see in the Ecumenical Patriarchate, not the reality of the State Church of Greece or the EP.

[OrthodoxyOrDeath]

When you judge the Orthodox Church, you fail to look at it really says.

It is precisley because I DO look at what it really says to know that I should have no relationship with those who in fact DONT teach it.

It is not enough to have an Orthodox faith, such as you indicate your bishop does, you must also be in the Church, which in no way has any relationship with heretics. Now is Bartholomew, Ignatius, Stylianos, Athanagoras, and all those who confess and signed Balamand, and all those who believe the Latin baptism is a baptism, and all those who don't believe in the Virgin Birth, and all those who teach there are Mysteries in the Latin system because they are some kind of "lung", and all those who pray with heretics, and all those who confess they want to brainwash the faithful, all all those who teach a non-Orthodox can receive an Orthodox Mystery (http://interfaith.goarch.org/) ect. ect, ect. heretics or not?

In fact, St. John Chysostom says that even people with an Orthodox faith, who are yet schismatics, are not Catholic - because if they were truly Catholic, then they would be in the Church.

I always ask, but have never once received an answer: What is it that is Orthodox which says it is acceptable to be in communion with heretics?

---

EDIT: I will be away until Thursday, God willing I will make any replies then.

[Daniel]

Nektarios,

If Bartholomew, honestly beleives that the Latins are heretics, then why on earth would he celebrate with them.

Here are two quotes from Bart from ADDRESS BY HIS ALL HOLINESS
ECUMENICAL PATRIARCH BARTHOLOMEW
SIXTH WORLD ASSEMBLY OF RELIGION AND PEACE
RIVA DEL GARDA, ITALY - NOVEMBER 4, 1994, 3:00 PM

That is why the Ecumenical Patriarchate has established an academic "dialogue of loving truth" with both Muslims and Jews. We hope to put behind what is unpleasant while putting forward the best values of humankind. As leaders, we must stand prophetically, and work for brotherly and sisterly co-existence among those of different faiths, for the benefit of all. We must set aside our differences and learn to "speak the truth in love", as children of the one and true God.

In June of 1995 we will continue the Dialogue of Love with our brother, the Archbishop of Rome, Pope John Paul II, a tradition established by Patriarch Athenagoras and Pope Paul VI, both of blessed memory.

And six months later, we will meet with our brother in Christ, Dr. George Carey, the Archbishop of Canterbury, to continue our ecumenical dialogue and immediately after, we will visit the World Council of Churches in Geneva, Switzerland, thus promoting understanding and unity through bilateral and multi-lateral dialogues

But we can only do this if we are united in the spirit of the one God, "Creator of all things, visible and invisible." Catholic and Orthodox, Protestant and Jew, Muslim and Hindu, Buddhist and Confucian -- it is time not only for rapprochement, but even for alliance and teamwork to help lead our world away from the false prophets of extremism and intolerance

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