Two questions

[Mor Ephrem]

It's alright, Justin. Anything you can come up with to help us figure out the answers is appreciated.

And now, at the risk of sounding like a stickler for good Latin, Joe needs to fix one thing, and may need to fix a couple of others.

Gloria Patri, et Filio, et Spiritui Sancte should read Gloria Patri, et Filio, et Spiritui Sancto.

Sancte Filumena should be Sancta Filumena, and Sancte Pie X should read Sancti Pii X I THINK. Check the Litany of the Saints to be sure.

Nice catch, Nektarios, on tecum v. vobiscum. I did not immediately catch that.

Sorry, Joe, if it looks like I'm picking on you, but bad Latin is only bad. So if I'm right in my corrections, you're going to have to read more than 45 pages of Latin grammar.

[Joe Zollars]

Ill have to change that. good catch on the Spiritus Sancti vs. Spiritui Sancto. i think your right on Sancta Filomena. but I think with Pii vs. Pie it depends upon which dialect your using. Even in ecclesiastical Latin their are slight variations from region to region that is the latin Mass STILL done by the underground Church in China will not sound/be spelled the same as the Latin Mass at Fontgombault abby in southern France. It should all be pronounced using the italianate pronunciation but this is not always done right, unfortunatly, but their are variations in Syntax.

I will dig out my old Raccolta and check when I get home.

Joe Zollars

[Joe Zollars]

hasn't anyone heard of a little bit of poor humor????

The Gregorian Missal did not exist prior to year 900 in the form it is still known to TradLats today. However prior to this earlier missals and sacramentaries are quite similar and in point of fact vary only in slight matters going all the way back. the Canon of hte Gregorian Mass (admittably with an Explicit, not just Implicit, Epiclisis) can be traced back at least as far as the Edict of Milan. I suggest reading the scholarly works of the Adrian Fortesque as well as Michael Davies' Short History of the Roman Mass. Both of these books prove that, while the arrangements are different and the commeoration of Saitns was not there in its present form, prove that many of the prayers and mementos found in the Canon can be traced back to the time of the apostles.

Did the Apostles speak Latin? Paul certainly did as a Roman Citizen, Peter probably learnt it. some of the other apostles probalby learnt it too. Also their is a good chance that Mathew knew it since he was a tax collecter.

Joe Zollars

[Gregory2]

The fact that the EP doesn't "recognize" the autocephalous status of the OCA is a non-issue -- anyone who's been Orthodox for any length of time knows that administrative proprieties are not high on the Orthodox's to-do list. The EP still formally considers the OCA as part of the MP - though that may be changing - I heard that Metropolitan HERMAN's recent trip to Istanbul went well - and the OCA receives her chrism from the EP, or maybe from the MP, which gets it from the EP.

I'd have a hard time believing that the "hard-line" monks on Agion Oros don't commune those in ROCOR or other type churches..... I'm not even in ROCOR but I like ROCOR a lot and have huge respect for it..... I don't even really consider it a separate church! I pray for reconciliation........

[mwoerl]

i was privileged to visit mount athos in 1992. not too long before i went, the oca clergy newsletter contained an article that stated "all 20 monasteries of mount athos declared rocor to be without grace..." i wrote to several abbots on mount athos, asking about the status of both rocor and the oca there. the abbot of philotheou sent the longest letter, in which he stated that the article on the oca newsletter was bogus; that rocor members could receive communion on mount athos, and that oca members could not; another abbot told me the article was the product of pressures and servility, and to stand fast where i stood (in rocor); the abbot of vatopedi instructed a monk to write me-he said neither rocor nor oca members could receive communion on mount athos. the article in the oca newsletter showed a striking ignorance of the situation on mount athos, as esphigmenou did not attend the holy community meetings for a number of years because if its zealot stand against the EP; so, it would have been absolutely impossible that "all 20 monasteries" condemned rocor. the letter from philothoeu also said that the abbots of zographou (bulgarian) and saint panteleimon's (MP) did not vote in favor of the condemnation of rocor, and the abbot of xeropotamou said he could not condemn anyone. so , apparently, nowhere near 20 monasteries declared rocor to be "without grace" despite the apparently fervent wishes of the oca that it was so!
when i went to mt athos, we stayed at the prophet elias skete, then under rocor. we of course were allowed to go to communion there. we also visited esphigmenou, where we were well received, and stayed overnight at zographou and hilandar (serbian), and were treated well in both places. on the bus coming from the port of daphne to karyes (the "capital"), we spoke with a priest from the oca, and of course told him we were in the church abroad. he seemed friendly. we ran into him again at iveron-shorlty after we saw him, we were asked to leave the premises! also brief visits to pantokrator and vatopedi. only a month or so after we left, the EP kicked the rocor monks from prophet elias skete off mt athos-in violation of the mt athos charter and greek laws concerning mt athos, in a very papal fashion...
so apparently, it depends where ya go and who ya know....although we did not attempt to go to communion at zographou or hilandar, i certainly was under the impression it would not have presented a problem.
i dont know the situation with the zealot fathers there now, and havent heard much about the "siege" of esphigmenou.
michael woerl

[mwoerl]

the monastery of esphigmenou commemorates archbishop chrysostomos II of athens, so obviously members of that particular greek old calendar church would be able to recieve communion at esphigmenou (if they can get in now and the blockade is off...)
some time ago i know that one of the small sketes commemorated metropolitan cyprian of oropos and fili, so obviously, members of that greek old calendar church, as well as the romanian old calendarists under metroplitan vlassie, and the bulgarian old calendarists under bishop photii could receive communion there....
although i dont know for sure and really havent heard, it is somewhat probable that at one time or another there were small sketes where the monks commemorated archbishop auxentios or matthewite bishops...
as an aside, i wonder if all the greek old calendarists are aware that their bishops stem from a consecration performed by, of course, two bishops, one of which was a follower of the new calendar, bishop teofil ionescu? at the time of the consecration of the greek old calendar bishop, bishop teofil was a member of rocor. much later, while in rocor, he commemorated romanian uniate bishops at liturgy, to protest the treatment of uniates in romania by the romanian patriarchate, then, not long after that, petitioned to be recieved by the romanian patirarchate-which he was.
michael woerl

[Seraphim Reeves]

Michael,

as an aside, i wonder if all the greek old calendarists are aware that their bishops stem from a consecration performed by, of course, two bishops, one of which was a follower of the new calendar, bishop teofil ionescu? at the time of the consecration of the greek old calendar bishop, bishop teofil was a member of rocor. much later, while in rocor, he commemorated romanian uniate bishops at liturgy, to protest the treatment of uniates in romania by the romanian patriarchate, then, not long after that, petitioned to be recieved by the romanian patirarchate-which he was.

Well Michael, given that you seem to be taking every possible opportunity to point this out, I'm sure if they weren't already aware, the resident Greek Old Calendarists are now. While I welcome all new users, I'm wondering about your motives on this question. Do you have problems with the Greek Old Calendarists? I know of at least one regular poster here (from the Chrysostmos II Synod) who would probably be interested in hearing your thoughts.

What you say about Bp.Teofil is most unfortunate, particularly the commemoration of Uniates. Of course, I'm not quite sure what it has directly to do with his previous acts on behalf of the Greek Old Calendarists.

Seraphim