Does the MP Have Grace?

Justin Kissel · Post by **Justin Kissel** » Mon 22 September 2003 12:34 pm

OOD,

You bring up good points.

ania · Post by **ania** » Mon 22 September 2003 3:11 pm

I just have this to say, that ROCOR never quit communion with the Serbs. Never happened, will likely never happen (at least in our lifetimes). Won't repeat the examples I gave before of Serbs serving with ROCOR, will take to long.
As far as MP having GRACE (oooh, the big G word), l don't know how many of you guys have actually been to Russia, stood & prayed in Russian (MP) churchs (ancient ones, and newly built ones both), spoken to MP priests, bishops, laypeople, etc. Until you actually go to Russia & experience it for yourself, I don't think you could (those who are doubting, one way or the other) decide fully for yourself. So my sugestion is, buy a plane ticket, get a visa, and go check it out for yourselves.
(Roadtrip, YEAY!!!)
Now must get back to work, so much work, stupid Hurricane Isabel, had no power from Thursday until last night here at the office, so much work...
Ania

OrthodoxyOrDeath · Mon 22 September 2003 4:19 pm

Ania,

I would appreciate it if you could provide the links where you showed the ROCOR never broke communion with the Serbs. For whatever reason, I never saw them.

And I don't mean examples where they simply served together like the recent "unsanctioned" concelebration with the EP. Like this shows, there are always people who will do whatever they want. It is well known the official position of the ROCOR after December 15, 1965 was not to serve with the Serbs. If you have something to the contrary I would like to see it.

As far as flying to Russia to "see" Grace - do you mean without any instrumentation whatsoever?

So you think the Grace of Christ's Church is bound to how "Orthodox" someone looks and acts outwardly, or how it makes you feel inside? I guess then the Nestorians are syncretistically Orthodox too, and the Donatist's would then be even more "Orthodox" than the Orthodox!

Forgive me for saying this, but this is sentimentalism. And I think allot of people think this way, at least you admit it.

If the MP is truly repented, then they will be Ordained to the priesthood.

rebecca · Post by **rebecca** » Tue 23 September 2003 1:02 pm

Do we know for a fact that ROCOR is in communion with people who are in communion with heretics? How far should one take this "guilt by association" thing? Should I leave ROCOR because ROCOR is in communion with the Serbian church, which is in communion with the EP, which is in communion with the Monophysites? I heard that we're in communion with the Serbs out of gratitude for their historical assistance to us. Is that really a reason to be in communion with someone? Or is their association with "world Orthodoxy" minimal enough to overlook?

Fr. John Matusiak said on the OCA "question and answer" website that the OCA does not believe in the branch theory or that the Orthodox and Catholics are two "lungs" of the same church. My grandma, who attends his church, says that he never gave Communion to non-Orthodox people.

But...I can quote several visiting priests (Antiochian and OCA) to our "Orthodox" campus group (which was dominated by Copts) who said that the differences between the Orthodox and the Copts are minor and that we should pray with them and that the Orthodox church should make every efffort to unite with them at any cost.

rebecca · Post by **rebecca** » Tue 23 September 2003 1:15 pm

Regarding the MP...Let us not forget their KGB-style seizure of several of our monasteries in the Holy Land.

Justin Kissel · Post by **Justin Kissel** » Tue 23 September 2003 2:04 pm

OOD,

What do you think about what ROCOR said in 1990, that essentially said that at least some priests had grace in their sacraments?

OrthodoxyOrDeath · Tue 23 September 2003 2:28 pm

The OCA mouth.

Left side of mouth:

Fr. John Matusiak said on the OCA "question and answer" website that the OCA does not believe in the branch theory or that the Orthodox and Catholics are two "lungs" of the same church.

Right side of mouth: The Latin baptism is a real baptism of the church and we should unite with our other "family" (ie. branch) the Copts who were "mistakenly" condemned by the Fourth Ecumenical Synod.

I once had to listen to Matusiak explain to me for an hour how the Traditionalists should ride to church on horseback if they didn't like electric lights in the Church. It was the most ridiculous conversation I ever had on the subject. And I don't mean this as a personal attack on him, but it was like talking to a 10 year old - now that I reflect on it, I really think he was just trying to avoid the real issues.