Man in near death calls on God, who comes?

[Maria]

Perhaps I am wrong, but if a man, woman, or child, comes to believe in Christ through reading the Bible, and through the words of the Protestant Pastor, then I believe that there is a little grace at work here.

A convert should be grateful to his Christian parents for raising him with Christian beliefs. If he is not, then he is ungrateful for all the time his parents spent in teaching him Biblical stories and the Lord's Prayers. We have so few priests and hierarchs in the True Orthodox Churches. Thus, we should be grateful that someone is sowing the seeds of faith for our priests and hierarchs to bring to the harvest.

I do believe that God has guided me through my earliest days as a Catholic. I remember praying with devotion, perhaps a little misguided, but God was present to me, and He comforted me in my darkest hours. If I had not experienced that early faith in Jesus Christ, I doubt that I would have been led to True Orthodoxy.

I don't know if Protestants or Catholics can or can't experience "much grace" outside the Church. I think grace must be hard to quantify. But as you note, God greatly helps people in those confessions in his compassion and love for mankind. And they recognise the presence of God. On the other hand, I have met many protestants and others who were deceived by their own acceptance that they were being led by the Spirit of God, but it was a lying spirit, doing a little good and then once trust is gained, slipping in a big lie.

One of the saints, perhaps St John Climacus, said that when he saw the temptations and trials that await the follower of Christ he thought, who then can be saved? How can anyone make it through such temptations and such deceptions unharmed? But it is the Mercy of God that we are saved. Thanks be to God. We have no other hope that in God the Trinity and the Holy Mother of God, as it says in our prayers.

God's great loving mercy -- is not that His Uncreated Grace being showered upon us unworthy sinners.

[Matthew]

That is a good question. Maybe a worthy topic for a thread of its own: What is the category or exact nature and extent of the grace that is extended to or experienced by the heterodox when they are helped by God?

Personally, I have no idea how to answer that question and do not know if it can even be answered. I have far too much to learn in the area of basics. But it is an interesting question.

[joasia]

I don't know if Protestants or Catholics can or can't experience "much grace" outside the Church.

This is a concerning point. But, I do feel the necessity to express my view due to my experience and then you can make your own conclusions. When I was praying to God to show me the way, I heard, in my heart, to go see a certain priest in the Greek Old Calendar Church. Basically, it was the thought that said: Go find Fr ---! It was very clear. I had to find this priest which someone told me about before. But, the thought was: Go now! Go to Fr. ---! Both these thoughts were in my heart, go find and go to.

Now back then, being a catholic, you would say that there was no chance of me experiencing "much grace". Then what was it that led me to Orthodoxy? I was outside the Church and yet I was led to Her. The Grace of God is beyond our existence. But, the union with the true Grace is in the One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

So we can be touched by the Grace of God whatever we were, but it is Holy Baptism that unites us to become members of His True Church.

So, in my view, there is "Grace" in all this created world. God created all this. So all His presence is in everything. And "Grace" is calling us to God. Whether we listen or not is up to us.

[Matthew]

Interesting points! I think no one will disagree that God's grace is indeed throughout the world, and maybe that it permeates and sustains the entire created universe. Some power holds the entire universe together. Are there, however, different kinds of uncreated grace. The grace that speaks to the hearts of those outside the Church, or heals them when they call out to God or the Theotokos, or one of the saints (and we have such accounts of even Muslims doing that and getting help--but why they don't convert after that is beyond me), is that grace of a different order than the kind that is present in the Body and Blood, or is it a matter of how much of the same is present? It is beyond dispute that the Canons and the teachings of the saints clearly say the mysteries of tbe Copts or Nestorians or "sacraments" of the Papists, or the "ceremonies" of the Protestants are devoid of grace. And yet there are indications that some kind of or expression of grace draws and assists them towards salvation while they are yet outside the Church proper.

How are we to understand these things?

[Maria]

Interesting points! I think no one will disagree that God's grace is indeed throughout the world, and maybe that it permeates and sustains the entire created universe. Some power holds the entire universe together. Are there, however, different kinds of uncreated grace. The grace that speaks to the hearts of those outside the Church, or heals them when they call out to God or the Theotokos, or one of the saints (and we have such accounts of even Muslims doing that and getting help--but why they don't convert after that is beyond me), is that grace of a different order than the kind that is present in the Body and Blood, or is it a matter of how much of the same is present? It is beyond dispute that the Canons and the teachings of the saints clearly say the mysteries of tbe Copts or Nestorians or "sacraments" of the Papists, or the "ceremonies" of the Protestants are devoid of grace. And yet there are indications that some kind of or expression of grace draws and assists them towards salvation while they are yet outside the Church proper.

How are we to understand these things?

Perhaps such speculation is not good. Certainly we do not want to discourage those who are not in True Orthodoxy but who are inquiring into it. God does lead us into the Truth if we seek Him with faith and love. And it is God who gives us faith, hope, and love.

However, even though we know where grace is since we have the Holy Mysteries, which are sources of grace, purification, illumination, sanctification, and theosis, we do not know where grace is not as God's grace is a mystery.

For example, God is everywhere present. We admit this truth in our daily prayers whenever we pray the Trisagion Prayers. In addition, the Psalms teach us that one cannot escape God's presence even if he were to go to the nethermost parts of the earth (Hades). Is this Presence of God His Divine Energies or Grace?

[Matthew]

Yes, well, like I said, it is really beyond me. I was asking more out of the idea to find out if anyone has read that The Church has difinitively answered that question. If it has not at this point in history, I think that is a clear sign that it is not important to know, and that it is beyond our knowing, and so it is unwise to investigate that matter. But I only asked because I am ignorant of a great many things that others seem to know well, and I wondered if I had perhaps simply "missed that class."

[joasia]

Interesting points! I think no one will disagree that God's grace is indeed throughout the world, and maybe that it permeates and sustains the entire created universe. Some power holds the entire universe together. Are there, however, different kinds of uncreated grace

.

No. There is only one Grace that is from God our Father.But, how He interacts with individual situations is His own business.

The grace that speaks to the hearts of those outside the Church, or heals them when they call out to God or the Theotokos, or one of the saints (and we have such accounts of even Muslims doing that and getting help--but why they don't convert after that is beyond me),

Can you offer some examples of people who didn't accept the Grace that healed them?

that grace of a different order than the kind that is present in the Body and Blood, or is it a matter of how much of the same is present? It is beyond dispute that the Canons and the teachings of the saints clearly say the mysteries of tbe Copts or Nestorians or "sacraments" of the Papists, or the "ceremonies" of the Protestants are devoid of grace. And yet there are indications that some kind of or expression of grace draws and assists them towards salvation while they are yet outside the Church proper. How are we to understand these things?

Well, I was in the Papist group and God called me to the true faith. I already explained my personal situation of how I came to Orthodoxy. Why do you still question whether it was the true Grace?

Yes, well, like I said, it is really beyond me. I was asking more out of the idea to find out if anyone has read that The Church has difinitively answered that question. If it has not at this point in history, I think that is a clear sign that it is not important to know, and that it is beyond our knowing, and so it is unwise to investigate that matter. But I only asked because I am ignorant of a great many things that others seem to know well, and I wondered if I had perhaps simply "missed that class."

The Church has an answer for everything. It is God's Church. I think you are missing the point here. The Holy Fathers have expressed how the Grace of God works in the world. I was trying to show you that based on my personal experience as a person coming from a heretic group. But, you seem to think there is no answer to your question and that just makes you blind. It may be beyond your "knowing", but I know what God showed me which brought me to Orthodoxy and I have the answer about Grace. Unfortunately, you have something blocking your ability to hear the answer. And you need to open your heart to see the work of God's Grace in all humanity.

You may have "missed that class", but you can do a make-up. That's the life of Grace with God. He gives us do-overs. The final exam is when we leave this world.