Another Russian group

[Suaidan]

Google tran:
The today's Genuine Russian Orthodox Church (now named as the Catacomb Church) numbers 31 Hierarchs, most of which (including the Chairman, Mr Raphael) come from this 'flow ' (the dominant size of the crew of Iosifiton) ie are authentic "Katakomvites"with unbroken Apostolic succession, however. This distinction is necessary, because there are "Katakomvites" with problematic regularity, "Katakomvites" which attempted to develop their own actions.
This is evidenced by the fact that the Genuine Russian Orthodox Church under Metropolitan Rafael is the only legitimated by the Russian state ecclesiastical jurisdiction outside the Patriarchate of Moscow!
IS THIS TRUE? How vague is the term "legitimated by the Russian state"..

I would assume that this means they have their own distinct registration. However, that's not a very good gauge, considering only the MP is treated as a state organ.

I am not sure, Ekklesiastikos, why this has is such a great occasion for first, mockery, and then, this sudden "investigation". (I assume this is supposed to be some "proof" of "Sergianism"? Really>) This is silly. We do our best to make determinations carefully, and we also have to trust that the hierarchs of Churches in our communion have some common sense as well.

First with the carnival comments, now this. And the "wolves in sheep's clothing" too, Fr S. Well, I try my best to reach out to everyone. (For that, I also earned the title "wolf in sheep's clothing", and others.) That's why I've defended both of you. Sometimes my own people read stuff like this and tell me "why are they so nasty to them/us/whoever". And then of course there are the calls to do things the good "old-fashioned" way and start flaming on each other, "declaring ourselves the whole church" throwing out our stupid made-up internet anathemas. I mean, seriously.

If these people are as horrible as you say, then that will come out on its own, and we will end our communion with them.

And Fr Siluan, you know as well as I do how difficult the situation is for anyone in Russia. I don't expect you-- or anyone else-- to love our choice of whom we entered into communion. But considering the situation ROAC is in, as well as ANYONE labelled "TOC" in Russia (since they are all now officially recognized as terrorist organizations), I would hope you'd respect such decisions.

And for the record, the TOC-R has about 90 parishes. I realize it's not nearly as many as ROAC. But for the sake of the souls of those who read all these things, we should consider taking our words more seriously.

[Ekklisiastikos]

If these people are as horrible as you say, then that will come out on its own, and we will end our communion with them.

Ask us who they are...and in which degree they contribute to the mockery of Traditional Orthodoxy in Greece. And by saying us, we mean our Synod which, speaking of numbers, is the largest! WOW..! These people used you and your Metropolitan. Actually your Metropolitan by his "good willing" consecrations here and there and by intervening into Greece's ecclesiastical territories and matters, offers a convenience to all those who are not in good terms with their ecclesiastical authority (both and NC and OC) and are seeking a Synod (legitimate or not) abroad, to avoid any domestic control.

And for the record, the TOC-R has about 90 parishes. I realize it's not nearly as many as ROAC. But for the sake of the souls of those who read all these things, we should consider taking our words more seriously.

And for the record, the largest and serious (and why not the only canonical) Synod in Greece is seeking union with the smallest Russian Synod of Archbishop Tykhon! So, it's not a matter of numbers!

[Suaidan]

Ask us who they are...and in which degree they contribute to the mockery of Traditional Orthodoxy in Greece. And by saying us, we mean our Synod which, speaking of numbers, is the largest! WOW..! These people used you and your Metropolitan. Actually your Metropolitan by his "good willing" consecrations here and there and by intervening into Greece's ecclesiastical territories and matters, offers a convenience to all those who are not in good terms with their ecclesiastical authority (both and NC and OC) and are seeking a Synod (legitimate or not) abroad, to avoid any domestic control.

I was referring to the Russians under Metropolitan Raphael; we've been in communion with Metropolitan Anghelos for 3 years now. It's caused us no real problems; and to be frank, had it not been for them, a lot of things that would have been worse did not happen. In a sense, we are actually grateful to God for the work they've done. What you are calling a "convenience", at least in the case of Bulgaria, for example, was actually very helpful for everyone. I am not sure what you mean by "a convenience to all those who are not in good terms with their ecclesiastical authority (both and NC and OC)". I don't really care about New Calendarists' "ecclesiastical authority". Of course, I was concerned when we made the two Bishops for Metropolitan Anghelos. And I honestly expressed my fears to my Bishop that the next day we'd be seeing "Archbishop Anghelos of Athens" or something terrifying like that.

In any case, we did not help Metropolitan Anghelos with the intent of consecrating a new hierarchy, but two assistant Bishops to run his Metropolis. He was part of the Lamian Synod, and as you know, many people were against making Abp Makarios a new Archbishop of Athens because that would not have resolved the problems that caused the schism, but simply replicated them. My guess is that Metr Anghelos was and is committed to that ideal-- that people make use of existing ecclesial structures (such as maintaining individual dioceses) and resolving the issues of the various Synodal administrations through a council rather than elect a whole new hierarchy. He says so much in his ecclesiastical points on his website (point #6.)

I support such a position because it is my own. We are moving past the point where we can keep splitting and restarting from scratch. If there are problems with the larger hierarchies that already exist, they must be addressed, as well as the parallel hierarchies, for the good of the Church, finally addressing each other; but if the issues that keep people (even whole dioceses) from entering into full submission (because the issue is not communion, but must canonically be submission, since that is the standard of ecclesiastical order) to a particular hierarchy, let a way be found to address the issue.

And for the record, the largest and serious (and why not the only canonical) Synod in Greece is seeking union with the smallest Russian Synod of Archbishop Tykhon! So, it's not a matter of numbers!

As much as I like the RTOC, I am not sure why your Synod didn't discuss matters with the ROAC or ROCiE for that matter. I certainly hope it is not based on simply the changing opinions of certain ecclesiastical writers. Such an invitation to dialogue should always be open, because the Russian groups, even without recognizing each other, have in practice developed a system of governance very much akin to how Metropolitan Anghelos, et al, themselves practice: since none of them has declared himself a Patriarch, it can be assumed an all-Russian council can and should eventually be called forth to do so, assuming their own divisions are resolved at that council first.

I am sorry if I seem difficult.

[Ekklisiastikos]

You seem difficult indeed..and I can't understand why! Anyways I'll come back to your views on this chaotic way of administration of the Church..

Any ideas..anyone..who is this "bishop" that Aggelos is in communion with?
http://www.metropolsynodgoc.com/images/com%20vic.jpg

[Suaidan]

You seem difficult indeed..and I can't understand why! Anyways I'll come back to your views on this chaotic way of administration of the Church..

Any ideas..anyone..who is this "bishop" that Aggelos is in communion with?
http://www.metropolsynodgoc.com/images/com%20vic.jpg

I know exactly who he is. It's Archbishop Victrice of Lausanne, who was a Bishop of the Milan Synod until the Italian Bishops had discussions with the Syriacs. He left and stayed isolated; for a while he was (if I remember correctly) with some Old Believers, and then went into communion with Metropolitan Anghelos. I don't know how exactly that occurred, but I am glad to see that this communion was restored.