Father Seraphim Rose

[Anastasios]

These are my own personal opinions, so I hope the moderators will allow them since you can say what you please.

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[Kybihetz21]

Dear brethren in Christ, our Lord:

I believe we should all just give it a rest. We are all entitled to our own opinions, whether right or wrong. Whereas I completely disagree with Catherine on certain subjects, I also beg to differ on other ideas or commentaries posted by some of the members of this forum, the same way that some of you will disagree with my own. I say let us just forget about this, on the spirit of the fast, and most humbly look at our own sins, which are many. Once we understand our sinful nature, prior and after our baptisms, then we will be able to comprehend those actions, taken by others, that so greatly worry us, and in some cases, disgust us. We must understand that, like so wisely said by an Orthodox monk, in our lives we fall and get up, and keep falling and getting up, all of this with the help from God. Unlike the preaching of some dissident groups, we are not completely saved once we received baptism; that’s when the thorny and narrow path starts, and when our temptations and struggle grow. Man has fallen, and furthermore, is a citizen of the prince of this world, therefore, only the Grace of the Holy Spirit can save man.

We must love one another, not only now during the fast, or on the Paschal night, but always. If we were to put aside our own views and prejudices, and look towards the Light of Christ, maybe we would not be arguing so much and separating from each other. I believe this is not only the result of our own sins, of which pride is the first, but of our own fear of losing that which is dear to us, the Church and our Faith. Let all of us pray to and ask for the help of St. Mary of Egypt, St. Moses the Black, St. Augustine of Hippo, and many, many other Orthodox men and women that attained sainthood through their repentance and by the Grace and mercy of God, after having been attacked by temptations and demons, and having fallen to both, just to spiritually resurrect and hold the victorious Cross of Christ.

[Anastasios]

^ I like what you said and how you said it.

[joasia]

Fr. Anastsi,

I was addressing this to Catherine.

joasia wrote:
These are my own personal opinions, so I hope the moderators will allow them since you can say what you please.

[Anastasios]

Fr. Anastsi,

I was addressing this to Catherine.

joasia wrote:
These are my own personal opinions, so I hope the moderators will allow them since you can say what you please.

Alright. I was confused since you referenced us and I wasn't sure what you meant. I just wanted to make it clear that we try to invoke our moderatorial "powers" as infrequently as possible.

[Catherine5]

Here's what i have to say, which to me closes this case.
It took awhile to contact my semi-spiritual father about this topic as he lives far away.
He said IMMEDIATELY that he and his [extremely sensible] Matushka never would read anything by Fr Seraphim.
That they NEVER trusted him, they both emphatically stated. Why, they did not say.
They said that it's people in Russia who are promoting his canonization, which they roll their eyes at. This confirms Incognito in what he told us originally. [Again I think Incognito has merit, but i know most people here don't, so I won't press it right now.]

This priest is a very high-ranking True Orthodox priest, very senior spiritually too, as he was such a close spiritual son of the Blessed Metropolitan Philaret that before the Metropolitan's repose, he actually traveled a very long distance to see this priest before he died. It's a long story, but this priest was that highly favored by the Metropolitan as to have been immediately selected by him for his - what would be called his aide de camp if it were in actual government - upon right at the outset when he was elected Metropolitan.
Obviously Met Philaret turned to this man for a good reason: he trusted him and his loyalty implicitly.

Therefore, this priest heard many of Metropolitan Philaret's confidences, and the Metropolitan - I could confirm this but I'm almost certain - that he never once mentioned Fr Seraphim Rose.
No offense, Prav, but all the hoopla about Met Philaret's approval of Fr Seraphim originated from guess where? PLATINA!

Met Philaret's secretary or some functionary did issue something like a statement commending the Platina Monastery's work. But that was ALL!
Take a look in all the years of The Orthodox Word magazine.
I went through the Indexes carefully seeking references to Met Philaret.
There is almost no mention of Met Philaret - except an article regarding Elder Tavrion and Fr DD - because this supported the position of Platina.

I thought it was a very strange omission from a ROCOR Journal and also the 900 or 1000 page Not of This World biography of Fr Seraphim.
They didn't have space to mention a small topic like their VERY HOLY Metropolitan more than a few times in passing?!

So, some years ago, I traveled all the way to see Fr Herman, the former Abbot of Platina, and asked him what he knew about Met Philaret and did they have contact with the Met in those years.

Fr Herman, who is rather direct in answering questions, immediately admitted No, he and Fr Seraphim did not know Met Philaret. Fr Herman said he knew almost nothing about him except the most generally available basics about his life. He freely admitted he had no details to give when asked about the Metropolitan's character, though he knew he was a holy man, and a remarkably staunch anti-Communist.

So to try to legitimize Fr Seraphim by using Met Philaret is a dead end which goes nowhere!

If this True Orthodox very senior priest expresses such disdain for Fr Seraphim, one can almost be sure that Met Philaret, with his clairvoyance, did not think much of Fr Seraphim.
He probably was pleased with the starting of a monastery out West, but had little spiritual sympathy or personal regard for Fr Seraphim.

To illustrate this, let's remember that Met Philaret came some summers to the West Coast and spent months at a time. I have talked, as many of us have, to clergymen who would regularly go fishing with their revered Met. in rivers far north of San Francisco, I think Russian River for example.
If really interested, the Met would have traveled to Platina,also north though on a different route. There was one time, according to Platina publications, that a false rumor circulated that the Met would be visiting them.
But he never did.
WHY?
This was the most amazing Metropolitan one can imagine, with the most real clairvoyance. WHY would he steer away from a budding monastery of his own ROCOR?

Probably he prayed, and was told by Heaven not to go. That's what I intuitively assume. But the reasons are known only to God. However, we can extrapolate from this that all was not right with Fr Seraphim.

Finally, the priest - I am not mentioning his name because he would prefer to remain humbly in the background - decisively gave his blessing to me and a friend, too, to cover up Fr Seraphim Rose's photos AND to NOT EVER read his writings!

The priest said "There are so many Saints recognized by the Orthodox Church to read."
He repeated that he did not find Fr Seraphim to be a trustworthy source. And common sense dictates studying the work of an authentic canonized Saint, not someone so tenuous and controversial. At best! That was his undisguised dislike of Fr Seraphim Rose. I had never spoken with him about Fr Seraphim, so I was pleased at his reaction.

Remember, this priest was a very close spiritual son of the great Metropolitan Philaret, which is a rare thing. People can CLAIM this, but this priest was the REAL ARTICLE! I suggest anyone who is at all open minded about Fr Seraphim Rose not being this incredible holy person he has been built up to be take this priest's words very seriously. He was hand-picked again by the Metropolitan to work with him as a right hand man. The Metropolitan trusted THIS priest, but maybe not many others, no matter what they may boast today after the Metropolitan is gone and cannot contradict them.
In short this was an Insider, not a hanger-on, as there were many.

I believe his words about topics like this are worth gold. He was right there serving Met Philaret when many of those advocating for Fr Seraphim all over the world were mere pipsqueaks, perhaps not even Orthodox yet-!!

So please consider this from this Father as a word to the wise....

[Catherine5]

Another angle here is what Fr Anastasios alluded to about the cult of Fr Seraphim.
Prav, just because DEER-??? showed up at Fr Seraphim Rose's burial does NOT make him a Saint.
If bands of ANGELS appeared overhead, that might open eyes to the holiness factor of Fr Seraphim [Rose].

So far there have been NO real miracles as far I have heard.

Just flimsy pieces of plastic painted over with fake gold leaf with the aim of impressing impressionable Western/American inquirers into Orthodoxy.

Let's be objective here.
This type of person is never going to head directly toward True Orthodoxy anyway, so why should we not TELL the TRUTH on this site about Fr Seraphim? That's my reaction.
It's better to be honest and the inquirers would remember that they heard more truth here than all the sugary inventions of the World Orthodox jurisdictions and RESPECT us for giving the straight story right from the start.

I agree with Prav above about not brushing under the carpet the real problems or inconsistencies or unresolved topics, just so as not to turn away potential inquirers.
Here, the type of person who goes ga-ga over Fr Seraphim Rose is MORE likely to go into the OCA< Antiochian< other liberal jurisdictions which cater to the average American mentality and avoid any ethnic overtones in order to bring in converts more smoothly.

The tales breathlessly claimed about "miracles" of Fr Seraphim revolve around his appearing to people in their dreams or speaking to them instructions.
He never ever could show up in my dream horizons. But IF Fr Seraphim did appear, I would promptly demand that he leave !

The problem is that for average Westerners who are not acquainted with supernatural ideas, they need a human like them to worship. I see that as the source of the success of the contrived cult of Fr Seraphim.
There is a celebrity dimension here too which was deliberately created and vigorously marketed by Platina - with every good intention, I am sure.

But my skepticism about his holiness is increased even more by the fact that I could see that some of the American women were attracted to Fr Seraphim and may have converted because of something not so healthy regarding this dimension. That's one reason I don't want to see his picture myself; I think there are unhealthy, even possibly luring rays coming out from it. Like from a movie star or pop singer's image, I see the same.
Call me in prelest or crazy !
As I said farther up the page, I wasn't writing about my dislike for Fr Seraphim for the people here today, but hopefully for some who may come to this forum later. If no one agrees with me right at this moment, it's fine. I will stick to my views.

Likely the converts I mentioned kept working and transcended this rather low-level motivation for their conversions to Orthodoxy. I'm not saying it was the sole reason, but may have played a strong - unconscious or even conscious - factor in their being drawn in.

My wish here is that souls will cultivate the infinitely more spiritually truthful and rewarding love for the Queen of Heaven, for example, and BONA FIDE Saints. Not the adulation of a fellow human which seems the most they can relate to at their stage of spiritual development.

Further, I wish that the True Orthodox Synods could come out with a clear and strong proclamation that they DO NOT consider Fr Seraphim [Rose] as a Saint and do not encourage venerating his pictures as icons.

In the long run, this is most far-sighted approach.

Furthermore, it will draw a clear line between the True Orthodox and the MP, a major supporter of the Fr Seraphim legacy.

To me there is a need for a clear statement which could itself be a foundation for more solid intra-True Orthodox relations. In turn this would help form a united front to face the MP with a message of far-reaching impact in simple clarity.

Opponents may charge that the True Orthodox say this just to offer opposition on any count to the MP.

But if backed up with statements like from the Father mentioned above, with a diplomatic delivery of course, it shows the True Orthodox have backbones and stand for something which the average convert can easily grasp.

Backbones,I mean, because they would be brave enough to buck the popular trends of the time. The True Orthodox who did this would be proving their independence from the overwhelming propaganda machine inculcating how incredible Fr Seraphim was.

I think it makes excellent sense. I know some Americans who were influenced by Fr Seraphim's writings to convert would be furious and refuse to join in with that.

As a general teaching, it's time for true confessing Orthodox Synods to direct their flocks AWAY from Fr Seraphim [Rose]'s cult/writings/image/smokescreen toward much higher spiritual aspirations, and warn their flocks not to venerate him even as a pre-saint.

After all, a beatific look on the face when reposed does not constitute sainthood candidacy....