Sergianism and politeness.

[Ekaterina]

Constantine wrote:

Thats funny because 95% of greek groups are schisms from rocor

Well, there you go...it seems that everybody who breaks away just keeps on breaking until there is really nothing left. It's that Donatist idea of perfection. Everyone keeps breaking up because they think only they have the perfect and purist version of Orthodoxy. Except in the end they fracture so much that there is nothing left to their "perfection". It's nothing more that self-righteousness, ambition and a greed for power and they drag a lot of souls with them.

Katya

[nyc_xenia]

wrote:

So again I ask where is this TRUE ORTHODOX CHURCH that you and, Cyprian and Mr C and all the rest of the various groups are touting. Which version of all these "CHURCHES" is the TRUE church? Yours? or someone else's?

A simple question and for some strange no one wants to give me a straight answer. Perhaps it is because, none of you are sure of it either.

Katya,
You ask where the "True Church" is and then you mock any resemblance of True Orthodoxy by setting your eyes on jurisdictional issues...

Well, there you go...it seems that everybody who breaks away just keeps on breaking until there is really nothing left. It's that Donatist idea of perfection. Everyone keeps breaking up because they think only they have the perfect and purist version of Orthodoxy. Except in the end they fracture so much that there is nothing left to their "perfection".

Or so World Orthodoxy would hope.

It's nothing more that self-righteousness, ambition and a greed for power and they drag a lot of souls with them.

I guess it's a matter of opinion or perhaps perspective, since many in True Orthodoxy believe the same thing about those in World Orthodoxy.

Where is the "True Church"? Where martyrdom bears witness to the Truth and persecution still exists, where the devil does his best to cause problems, struggle and hardships and where the grace of God continues nonetheless.

What "jurisdiction" is that? Well, from the beginning of the Church there existed more than one jurisdiction and even then, there were conflicts of opinions and local traditions which varied. So if your point is to have anyone direct you to one particular synod in the hopes that it is their own, so that you might proceed to attack it, then this is really all in vain. No?

Otherwise, I would just use the map.

[Ekaterina]

Xenia wrote:

from the beginning of the Church there existed more than one jurisdiction

Ah, yes, the branch theory.....

Katya

[Ekaterina]

Xenia:

In reply to your comments above....

The problem I see with all of these arguments is that we confuse the perfection of Christ’s Church with the imperfection of the humans who administer that church. Some have Written that it is too sad to contemplate those imperfections with regard to church history, but it is there whether or not we want to admit it, and is part of the human history of the church.

It is a given that Christ’s Church does not change and is in itself perfection sublime, but humans administer it here on earth, flawed, fractured, capricious,imperfect humans, even some of those fathers who were around then and some who are around now. We keep trying to put them on pedestals and they keep falling off. Face it humans can be incredibly cruel, incredibly stupid, incredibly unwise. Not all of humanity is saintly or sainted and we are all imperfect. The percentage of those who are saints or saintly is very small. All the rest of humanity does what it can as best as it can. This DOES not mean that they can’t be stupid, that they can’t make stupid choices or unwise ones or even right
ones. It matters not whether you are a lowly peon or the Head of state, or whether you are the chief bottle washer or the Chief priest of the Orthodox Church. Every single one is subject to the passions of power, greed, ambition, self-preservation and politics. We don’t want to see them as such, but they are such people.

So along comes one of these who is supposed to lead us and he makes idiotic choices while he plays in the world arena… so what do we do? We condemn (with too little fact and a lot of guessing) and we start bickering and we start fighting about the skimpy facts. But we do not make use of those “proper channels” that Orthodoxy has to deal with these things. Noooo, we instead break
apart the church, fracture it into a million pieces, break apart families and hearts. We become legalistic Pharacies. We become self-righteous and condemning. It is far easier to leave and form your own version of “perfection”.

We are called to forgive each other, not just some of us but everyone. And yet how often do you see the attitude, that I don’t have to forgive him because he’s a heretic? Says who ….YOU? or ME? Or THEM? Where is it said that we are gods that we may take upon ourselves that which is GOD’S right? Are we so
perfect that we know everything with GOD’s perfection?

So for me it is far easier to work on forgiveness within the exiasting frame work and to pray that God will forgive His children and will show them His mercy. That He will lead us to the Truth and not condemn us as we so often condemn each other.

Katya

[Anastasios]

Haven't a clue about whether they are "graceless", although I have my thoughts on that, but Theophan, you are pointing me to a Greek group. I live in NY and let me tell ya the Greeks are even more fractured than some of the break away pieces from ROCOR. I tend to avoid them cause it's iffy any way you look at it.

Katya

We're not a Greek-only group. We have many American and Russian members.

My posting this factual piece of information does not imply that I share the sentiments of any of the other posters, FYI.

[GOCTheophan]

Xenia wrote:

from the beginning of the Church there existed more than one jurisdiction

Ah, yes, the branch theory.....

Katya

Dear Katya,

No it is not because the True Orthodox do not differ in Dogma and way of life while as even though the "World Orthodox" are "united" canonically they do have considerable differences in both what they believe and how they go about living that belief.

Was it the branch theory when they were un-united to believe that both ROCOR and the MP were THE Church even though the MP offically declared ROCOR Graceless and received apostates from ROCOR by Chrismation in your opinion? I would think no. Yet you seem very quick to believe that those who could not accept union with the MP for whatever historical, canonical or theological reasons are outside of THE Church and devoid of Grace.

Theophan.

[GOCTheophan]

Xenia:

So for me it is far easier to work on forgiveness within the exiasting frame work and to pray that God will forgive His children and will show them His mercy. That He will lead us to the Truth and not condemn us as we so often condemn each other.

Katya

Dear Katya,

After reading that I cannot help feeling that you deliberately misunderstand people. We are not talking about moral failings. We are talking about heresy and schism. Do you consider the Lutherans to be Orthodox?

Theophan.