Joint MP-ROCOR meeting calls English Liturgy "Protestan

[Pravoslavnik]

Vo Istinu Voskrece!

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     This latest comment from the modern Russian hierarchs is one more indication of just how far the Sergianist state Church in the former Soviet Union--and in the new ROCOR-Laurus--has strayed from the path of true Orthodoxy.  As I  understand it, over one half of all ROCOR parishes in America prior to 2000 were comprised primarily of English speaking, non-Russians in search of traditional Orthodoxy, and one important link in St. John of San Francisco's Apostolic outreach to the West was through blessed Father Seraphim Rose of Platina.   A generation of Orthodox Christians have been brought into the ROCOR in America through the work of Father Seraphim, who also taught that "[i]true Orthodoxy can never be comfortable[/i]."  Yet, these new racist hierarchs are saying that using English liturgics in an English-speaking country like America will make people too "comfortable" to be Orthodox!   (Unlike the luxury mansion in Moscow acquired by the MP for Metropolitan Laurus in the 1990's--nothing "comfortable" about that!)
      Why did St. Innocent of Alaska translate Orthodox rubrics into the language of the Aleutians?  (I have heard with my own ears the prayers of Native Americans liturgizing in their own language in Russian Orthodox Churches in Alaska.)  Why did the Apostle Paul strive to be "all things to all people?"  So that the one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church would ultimately be exclusively Russian?
   What absolute facist nonsense we hear coming from the Russian Federation these days!  It is almost reminiscent of Germany in the 1930's, with a nascent police state and no free press, to boot.  These men are a disgrace to Our Lord Jesus Christ and His Holy Apostles, who were instructed to "go...to all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit." Why any Americans in the ROCOR-Laurus would chose to remain under the jurisdiction of men who have so completely betrayed their own flocks is a mystery to me.

[Helen]

To reiterate my point that Russian nationalistic pride is not confined within ROCOR or MP jurisdictional boundaries, I would like to point out that in the Australian context (I'm from Australia), it is seen that most (not all) parish services are in Slavonic (apart from the occassional token Epistle and Gospel reading). For comparison, I seriously doubt that the Catacomb Church in Australia will endorse any introduction of English into their services and I will be pleasantly suprised if I find out that they at least use the token English Epistle and Gospel reading. Perhaps it is a different story in America and elsewhere, especially since I often hear people comment that more people and especially the youth, speak Russian better than Russian Americans. But then again I often hear that Australia is at least 25 years behind America in Orthodoxy. Perhaps 25 years down the track Russian Australians will also not speak Russian as well. Any thoughts? Comments? Especially interested to find out whether other Russian jurisdictions (ie not ROCOR or MP) use English in services or are involved in any missionary translation work. I personally think that ROCOR/MP through their contact with OCA, GOC and the Antiochian Church will by the very nature of this contact, exhibit more 'English' than other jurisdictions.

[Pravoslavnik]

My ROCOR parish in America was founded by Russian immigrants following World War II. By the second generation, it was relatively deserted--just a few aging Russian families left. American converts became active in the parish from 1980, and services were conducted 50-50 in English and Slavonic, using liturgical and musical transcriptions from Jordanville, St. Vladimir's, and by Dr. Timothy Clader in Rochester, New York. I am utterly appalled by the anti-English sentiments in our new Laurus Synod. It is fairly obvious to many of us by now that the ROCOR-Laurus hierarchs do not view the 50% of their flock who are English-speaking Americans, or second and third generation Russians, as part of their flock, perhaps partly because the American converts have been critical of the secret, carefully orchestrated rapprochement with Moscow, and the suspicious ouster of Metropolitan Vitaly (Ustinov), after 2000.

[Pravoslavnik]

One additional comment, as an addendum to the previous post. It seems to me that the ROCOR-Laurus in America will now essentially devolve into a mere extension of the Moscow Patriarchy here; a church governed by and for recent Soviet emigres, from the Kremlin. This puts the Moscow Patriarchate in the rather difficult position of violating the canons of the Orthodox Church, since it was the Moscow Patriarchate, itself, that granted autocephaly to the Orthodox Church of America (the former Metropolia) in 1970. If Moscow argues that their Sergianist Church administration in 1970 was not legitimate, how can they, at the same time, argue that they are now a legitimate Patriarchal administration of the Russian Church, entitled to assume control of the ROCOR? Certainly their hierarchs, including Patriarch Alexey II (Ridiger) have not been replaced, other than through attrition, since 1970. If they are to appoint and govern a Russian nationalist Church in America, alongside the autocephalous OCA which they established in 1970, then they are quite evidently heretical, based upon the Church canons regarding phyletism. If they rescind the autocephalous status of the OCA, they are acknowledging that they have not been a legitimate Orthodox Church hierarchy in the Sergianist era. So they are, ipso facto, either not legitimate, or they are heretical (phyletist.)
Based upon this reasoning, Father Alexander Lebedev, in his Soviet nationalist fervor, is not only preaching to the only ROCOR choir still standing (i.e., the Soviet one), he is also preaching to a choir of heretical phyletists, who should, canonically, be worshipping under the omophorion of the OCA. Any thoughts about these canons from those who know more about them than I?

[The Apostate]

Pravoslavnik, if this is how you understand the matter (and you have expressed your position clearly, for which I thank you), then how does the ROCOR/MP reunion change anything? If what you say is true (and I make no statement about that), then surely this dilemma has existed for some considerable time. The Moscow Patriarchate already has communities under its omophor on the geographical territory of the OCA. I don't understand what difference the ROCOR/MP reunion makes but then, my canonical knowledge is scant.

[spiridon]

Well I myself think that often times "WE" americans throw and hurdle things around like fly`s on a dead horse, we often shout "racism" "conservative" "tree hugger" "extremeist" and "Leftist Democrat" and protestant Republican" and many many more...
in reality I think it is "US" whom are the Biggots and want eveything our way, a way to ease our everyday lives as we are used to in america. we basically want everything on a silver platter, or else...
The slavonic language is a beautiful language and one used for Liturgical purposes only- Why cant we americans with all the resources and modern gadgets at our disposal learn this dieing and faithful language used for nothing more, than worship Of the Tri-Une GOD- so many beautiful and contrite words that could never be translated into the english language...
dont be so hard on yourselves, if all you want is english ,than remember we all make our decisions-
the mexicans who have been learning the Orthodox services in mexico wouldnt think about changing the language, only because the faithful wouldnt understand-BUT, if you taught the faithful the reason behind the Slavonic language, they would be very interested in learning it, as it is something put aside, a language used for the Worship of God only...
look at the Greek, it is a soon to be extinct language, and its a language of the Greek country too- but you wont hear it much in the state church abroad

[Pravoslavnik]

The point by Mr. Astley is a good one. How has the MP justified having MP churches in America alongside the autocephalous OCA? I never thought much about the issue until now, because I have been absorbed in the life of the ROCOR for many years. Incidentally, I have learned Slavonic, and greatly value the use of Slavonic in the liturgical life of the Church. What bothers me about this recent criticism of English in the American ROCOR is how un-"Apostolic" it seems, especially at a time when so many people, including Father Alexander Lebedev, are equating modern Russian nationalism (facism) with traditional Orthodox Christian piety. It seems the very height of hypocrisy for these Russian hierarchs to criticize Americans for wanting to hear the liturgy and readings in their own language (i.e., being too "comfortable") at the same time that the MP has furnished a luxury mansion in Moscow for Metropolitan Laurus and the ROCOR Synod. Please, at least, share the podvig a little, comrades!