Grace Poll

Patristic theology, and traditional teachings of Orthodoxy from the Church fathers of apostolic times to the present. All forum Rules apply. No polemics. No heated discussions. No name-calling.


Do you believe that following the new calendar in itself deprives an Orthodox jurisdiction's sacraments of grace??

Poll ended at Fri 25 July 2003 1:46 pm

Yes

3
21%

No

10
71%

I don't know

1
7%
 
Total votes: 14

OrthodoxyOrDeath

Post by OrthodoxyOrDeath »

So then, this is not the deceptively titled "Grace Poll" about whether or not people think new-calendarism has "Grace". It is a poll about a hypothetical situation. And that is not to say that the Church, like American Foreign Policy, is driven by polls anyway. :)

"...the whole effort of the enemy is directed towards distracting the intellect from the remembrance, fear and love of God, and to turning it by means of earthly forms and seductions away from what is truly good owards what appears to be good." (St. Makarios of Egypt , The Homilies I: Spiritual Perfection no. 14, The Philokalia Vol. 3)

Justin Kissel

Post by Justin Kissel »

I didn't take the original poll as a hypothetical situation, I took it as a situation existing in countless places, effecting real people. I took it as a question such as: "The local OCA parish down the street uses the new calendar, are their sacraments without grace just because they use the new calendar?"

bogoliubtsy
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Post by bogoliubtsy »

Yes, exactly Justin.
Or, better yet, was St. John of San Francisco sharing communion with people outside of the Church when he had new calendar parishes under him?

Of course the answer is an emphatic NO....but according to this poll, some seem to believe the answer is YES. I find that very odd.

OrthodoxyOrDeath

Post by OrthodoxyOrDeath »

Justin,

I thought it became clear with Peter in page one of this thread that we are not talking about the institution of the new-calendar in the full context of the motives behind it and the canonical status, incorrect faith, and murderous brutality of its implementers. What we are talking about (at least what I have been talking about): does just using it, as if in the context that if was always used, or fell out of the sky, make one heretical, which completely ignores the real definition of the new-calendar, the reasons why anyone would use it, and its Satanic and diabolical origin?

If this is wrong, then I have a host of new comments to make.

Justin Kissel

Post by Justin Kissel »

I suppose we are just talking from two very different vantage points, here. :(

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Methodius
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Fighting Words?

Post by Methodius »

There is a book "Precious Vessels of the Holy Spirit, The Lives & Counsels of Contemporary Elders of Greece", translated and partly written by H. Middleton.

One of the eight Elders included in the book was Blessed Elder Philotheos
Zervakos of Paros. Elder Philotheos was greatly grieved over the calendar change, and the divisions it caused in the Church, but he did not seperate from his bishop. According to Middleton's book, Elder Philotheos believed that the only path to unity was the restoration of the traditional calendar. But Elder Philotheos believed that neither side in the calendar controversy was free of fault, and he said both sides fell under different anathemas.
In a letter the elder wrote to Papa Demetri Gagastathis in 1960, quoted in
Middleton's book, Elder Philotheos wrote: the"new calendar was neither
introduced into the Orthodox Church by an Oecumenical Council nor by a local Synod.


Rather, the Oecumenical Patriarch Meletios(Metaxakis), who was a thirty-three degree Mason, together with six anti-Orthodox minded hierarchs, introduced it anti-canonically and illegally, thus showing contempt for the Orthodox Church and the traditions of the Holy Apostles and Holy Fathers." With regard to the Old Calendarist groups, on the other hand, who had seperated from the official Church, the elder wrote that they had likewise erred and fallen under anathema, in that they "are transgressors and scorners of the first tradition of the Great commandment of Love. The commandment of love-they disdain it, violate it, cast it out, hating one another, biting at one another, beating up on one
another." He was especially upset that"certain zealot old caledarists believe and are of the mindset that the Mysteries without the calendar are invalid and that without the calendar there is no salvation. A greater heresy than this does not exist."

Justin2
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Post by Justin2 »

I thought Pascha was on the same day for OC and NC. And I don't know anything about this "moving the feast" thing, or for that matter getting RID of the Apostles' fast...It certainly doesn't seem to happen in my church...now if you'll excuse me, I have to go entertain my "fork-tailed" friends :x

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