Alexey II says all evil forces are against MP-ROCOR union

[尼古拉前执事]

Dear Justin,

This makes the second post since you became an agnostic that you ascribe intentions toward me which I neither have nor have had in the past. I wonder if in your post-Orthodox days you are now ascribing your previous thoughts during your stints in traditionalist Orthodox thought to others who remained? I do not dare accuse you of this, as I cannot judge your thoughts which I do not know, but merely ask in hopes that you may consider this possibility, which is the only one I can surmise with your new style in attacking those you once stood with.

I definitely do not have issues with Russian-ness. As you may recall I am still in a Russian Church and have embraced the praxis of the Russian Church. I was hardly the first to point out how Alexei II was focused on how important the Russian-ness of the ROCOR is and if they lose that then the MP and ROCOR could not unite. In fact, on other lists people in ROCOR, even those that are pro-union are complaining about this, as the Russianess, while part of its flavor is no where as important as its Orthodoxy. If a church in America loses its Orthodoxy, its fiaht changes immeasurably. If it loses its Russian-ness, it loses none of its faith.

Care for Russian-ness over Orthodoxy of a Church is what creates Uniatism. As for me, while I may prefer a Russian church, I would go to a Greek or even a Western-Rite Orthodox Church rather than a Russian heterodox church, because Orthodoxy is much more than a preference, it is a matter of truth.

[Kollyvas]

Christ is Risen!

Inherent in "Russianess," ie "russkost'," is the notion of Orthodoxy, a rather conservative Orthodoxy of an ontological "obrjad" at that. What His Holiness is alluding to here is the forfeiture of the imperial legacy of Russian Orthodoxy which ROCOR seems to have preserved in a complementary and not as fettered a way as the Mother Church. His Holiness is not arguing whether or not union with the MP will be impossible once this "russkost'" has been assimilated away, but rather that the loss of such a link could impact the Russian church as a whole and be quite pitiful. The Russian church is composed of dioceses which are indeed not Russian at all, qv the Japanese Church among others, while in America her daughter, the Orthodox Church in America, was precisely established to minister Orthodoxy to descendents of ethnic Orthodox, of the various "Russian" extractions and otherwise. To speak of a Greek alternative is to indeed mistake wax for honey, for ethnic consciousness is a TRADEMARK of the various strands of "Hellenic Orthodoxy," both "purer" and more "contemporary." Again, the ties which bond ROCOR (and its spin offs) to the Mother Church are precisely based in a common patrimony. If this patrimony is lost, what does the MP or St. Tikhon or the Holy New Martyrs matter? After all, one can be Orthodox without Orthodox heritage? Then one has to recapitulate life in the West with his Orthodoxy and struggle for an Orthodox compass, finding oneself adopting the customs of Orthodox countries. And isn't one of the commandments to "HONOUR THY FATHER & MOTHER"? When we do not honour them, we simply honour ourselves. The emptiness of such pride is self condemnatory. This all leaves the question begged:

Why is it a sin to have Orthodox heritage and foster it?

I contend it is not, but, yes, the diasporan and missionary realities of existing in foreign lands must be our first consideration.
Voistinu Voskrese!
Rostislav Mikhailovich Malleev-Pokrovsky

[Priest Siluan]

Gee Nicholas

Justin:

I think that his agnostisimo or leaving the Faith is not an excuse to lack respect to other (or in fact Fr Nikolai) or to behave grossly. I think that if you continue with this shameful behavior, we will be forced to ban you.

In Christ

Priest Siluan

[Chrysostomos]

I think that if you continue with this shameful behavior, we will be forced to ban you.

Fr. bless,

I just logged on and guess I should check out the rest of the board, but if what Justin has just said to Fr. Deacon Nicholas warrants banning, then I think many on this board should have been banned long ago.

Kissing the hand of Christ,

Rd. Chrysostomos

[尼古拉前执事]

Christ is Risen!

Inherent in "Russianess," ie "russkost'," is the notion of Orthodoxy, a rather conservative Orthodoxy of an ontological "obrjad" at that. ... If this patrimony is lost, what does the MP or St. Tikhon or the Holy New Martyrs matter? After all, one can be Orthodox without Orthodox heritage? ...

Rostislav Mikhailovich Malleev-Pokrovsky

Truly He is Risen!

Dear Rostislav,

Based on what you say here, would you say it was wrong of the Russian Church to lose its Greekness since it's mother was Constantinople?

[joasia]

Xpistos Avestn!

I love the Greek tradition and I love the Russian tradition...although I have come to feel much more closer to the Russians...but that doesn't make me either. I am North American. I ask again...where does that leave us converts in this pot of Orthodoxy when everyone identifies themselves with their nationality?

Personally, I feel a little awkward being of Polish descent because of the history between the Russians and Poles. The Poles are not too understanding about Russians because of the suffering they went through under the Soviet Regime. And the Russians don't consider the Poles of any spiritual significance because they are Catholic.

There was, actually, one Russian man who said that a convert cannot really be Orthodox because he/she is not Russian. Good thing that the Greeks didn't think that when they came to Russia. To fight for one's land is one thing, but to think that someone is Orthodox because of their nationality is too much.

The whole meaning of Orthodoxy is the True Faith in Christ, with the true theological and spiritual teachings...the straight path.

Pat Alexei II is reaching out to the Russian people in order to awaken their conscience to their Orthodox heritage. I can understand that. And I would probably be more gun-ho about the Russian culture and history than the average Russian, who cares more about the Western influence. They care about the latest music or movie or whatever...

I would like to ask the moderators if they would consider a subject format based on the North American born Orthodox, cradle and converts....for issues that concern our life circumstances...no talks about Russia or Greece etc....just about our North American situation.

Don't get me wrong...I love Russia and the Russian Orthodox struggle. But, we have to consider the lifestyle and society we live in. It can't always be about Russia or Greece or Serbia or Bulgaria or Rumania. We need to talk about our lives here in North America. Get something going. Make things happen. We have to reach out to those lost souls who need to hear about the True Faith.

They're probably watching us now and they can't associate with our subject matters about the Russian Church situation. They just need to hear about God and the True Teachings...they need to be shown the straight path.

[Kollyvas]

Christ is Risen!

Evlogeite Pater.
If I was perceived to argue that the Russian church in diaspora can not lose its "Russianess," I think I was misinterpreted. I argued that there was nothing wrong with ones Orthodox ethnic heritage, that such heritage and its customs reinforces our personal struggles, no matter our perceived current nationalities. I underlined that the primary focus was our diasporan, multi-generational assimilated realities. I also made the point of saying it was necessary to honour ones father and mother, but that does not mean being ones father or mother. In the case of ROCOR specifically, they themselves sought to preserve the "old Russian pre-revolutionary Orthodox identity." That is what is seen by His Holiness as a pity to be lost before the rest of Russia can be reacquainted with it. I concur with his sentiment. As far as "Hellenic" whatever is concerned, the Russian church has generally in the modern era seen itself as "Greco-Russian," and I tend to see a wonderful synthesis of Greek and Russian ways of being Orthodox melded in a diasporan mission. I think why many converts end up in dead ends, not fully throwing off their heterodox roots, is the fact that they really don't have a concept of being rooted to an Orthodox culture, and it is extremely difficult to find one/acquire one in the godless West. Inasmuch as the Russian church is the largest local church and the progenitor of the Orthodox mission in the Western hemisphere, it is natural and not really a hindrance to look to Russian archetypes (and Greek!) to develop the American Orthodox family. Take, for example, Aleut culture, distinctly Aleut, but wonderfully inculcated with a sense of an Orthodox way of life. That is what missionary bodies should be emulating now. I hope this is an explanation as I really didn't understand how I could say that Orthodoxy abroad cannot exist without "Russianess." On the contrary, I argued that it could, but in doing so, it wouldn't have real roots to the Mother Church and would be something different, something which would have to look to Orthodox cultures to put forward a model of an American Orthodox way of life, for failing to do so would mean an Orthodoxy in church while outside still American and unconverted. That type of church will not survive as Orthodox.
Indeed He is Risen!
Rostislav