Stigmas indicate their carriers are either saints or insane

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drewmeister2
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Post by drewmeister2 »

Juvenaly "Misha" wrote:

Andrew,

The point I think the others seem to be making here is the fact that the spirituality of the Orthodox Church and that of the Roman Catholic Church are totally different.

What I think is even more interesting is that these occurances have no basis in the traditions of the Church. By Church I am referring to the Undivded Church of both East and West prior to the Schism. If there was a time during the Union of the East and West when these things would have occured it would be different but for me (and for many in the Orthodox world) it is seen as demonic because these things did not begin to occur until after the West split from the East out of pride and prelest.

Good point :), but just because the West may have split from the East out of pride, doesn't mean that there haven't been some holy Catholics. It is certainly possible.

Granted though, the stigmata may be from the devil, as a source of pride.

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Грешник
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Post by Грешник »

Yes Drew,

There very well may be some holy Catholics, but the point is not judge our bretheren, but to look at the Faith of the church as a whole in reference to the activities that are found within. Christ said, "By their fruits ye shall know them."

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drewmeister2
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Post by drewmeister2 »

Juvenaly wrote:

Yes Drew,

There very well may be some holy Catholics, but the point is not judge our bretheren, but to look at the Faith of the church as a whole in reference to the activities that are found within. Christ said, "By their fruits ye shall know them."

Oh, I see what you mean :). Thank you for your help!

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Stigmas indicate their carriers are either saints or insane

Post by TomS »

Mystery of Christ's Wounds

08/30/2004 15:35
Stigmata appeared for the first time on the hands of the founder of the Franciskan order, St. Francis

Mental processes, emotions and feelings are closely connected with the human body. The interaction of 'body and soul' is exposed most explicitly on human skin. The phenomenon of stigmata is still considered a religious enigma. However, one may say there are a lot of religious people, whose hands may start bleeding on religious holidays, particularly during The Passion. "In Christian mysticism, bodily marks, scars, or pains suffered in places corresponding to those of the crucified Jesus-on the hands and feet, near the heart, and sometimes on the head (from the crown of thorns) or shoulders and back (from carrying the cross and being whipped)," Encyclopedia Britannica says.

The phenomenon appeared long ago. At the end of the 19th century doctors examined Louise Lato - bleeding wounds appeared on her hands during religious holidays for no particular reason. Doctors put a sealed bondage on one of the girl's hands prior to a religious holiday. The bondage was removed on Good Friday - members of the Belgian Academy of Sciences saw bleeding ulcers on the girl's hand.

Teresa Neiman (deceased in 1962) was kept under profound medical supervision for a very long time. Teresa was suffering from Christ's Wounds too: blood would start flowing spontaneously, causing terrible pain to the woman. Wounds would then heal up in a week without scarring. Furthermore, the woman was suffering from bloody tears and bloody sweat.

As it is known from the history of religion, stigmata appeared for the first time on the hands of the founder of the Franciskan order, St. Francis (1182-1226). Over 300 cases have been described since then. It is noteworthy, religion is not the only ground that causes stigmata to appear. Writers may suffer from them at times too, when they become too much preoccupied with their own characters. Charles Dickens wrote, for instance, that his face had swollen when he was working on the story "The Chimes." Soviet writer Maxim Gorky fainted, when he was writing a scene, in which a jealous husband stabs his wife in the liver. A bleeding wound soon appeared on Maxim Gorky's body, in the area of his liver.

Mysterious bodily wounds may appear, if relatives endure too much of their relatives' sufferings. A sister witnessed her brother being whipped - her back was then covered with bleeding scars reminiscent of her brother's. The fact was officially documented. Doctor Faivishevsky described similar occurrences with women, who were forced to witness their children being beaten.

Stigmatization as a result of nightmares has also been described in medical literature. A medical college student attended the autopsy procedure for the first time in her life. The next day she said she had had a very bad dream, in which the dead man was choking her and grabbing her hands, trying to drag her away. When she woke up, she found her neck and wrists bruised. Doctor Kolbin described a child, who had lost his hair after a nightmare. The little boy had a dream, in which his grandfather rose from the casket and grabbed the boy's hair. The child had the nightmare several nights in a row, losing more and more of his hair.

The phenomenon of imaginary pregnancy is to be categorized as autosuggestion, when sterile women develop lipopexia on their stomachs, which in its turn incites adequate breast changes. "It comes from your head, your dreams, to influence such a quiet vegetative process as the augmentation of adipose tissue," scientist I.Pavlov wrote.

Some experts believe stigmata appear due to brain activities, such as imagination. A religious fanatic may suffer from Christ's Wounds, if he or she thinks too much about the crucified Jesus. Writers may suffer from this bodily ailment if they share the suffering and pain of their own literature characters.

Doctor A. Lechner hypnotized a girl in 1993, having reproduced Christ's Wounds on her hands. Doctor A. Kartashev was keeping a female patient under his observation in 1936. In a state of hypnosis the woman had been convinced she had been taking quinine. Nettle-rash developed for the woman several hours after the seance. Bruises, frostbite, edema, rash and pigmentation are possible to be caused with hypnosis.

The above-mentioned story about the boy, who had lost his hair because of the nightmare, can also be classified as autosuggestion. A well-known Russian "psychotherapist" Anatoly Kashpirovsky was very popular in the USSR. He conducted healing sessions and seances for audiences numbering in millions on live Soviet television at the end of the 1980s. A girl's body was covered with hair as a result of one of such "healing sessions." One may assume Kashpirovsky caused a rough dysfunction of endocrine glands, which made hairs appear all over the girl's body. Kashripovsky claimed he did not use hypnosis in his session - he did not say the world "sleep," as he explained in an interview. One has to acknowledge, however, modern medicine does not identify hypnosis with sleep now. An up-to-date definition says hypnosis causes a state of constricted conscience, which may evolve not only as a result of a verbal influence. "Extrasensory individuals," "sorcerers" and other "healers" use the effect of autosuggestion in their practice. However, they do not think that hypnosis reminds the work of a surgeon. Putting a person in a hypnotic trance can be compared to an abdominal surgery. Just a cut on a patient's stomach does not determine the skills of a surgeon. The mastery of a psychotherapist implies the reasonable influence on a patient prepared to comprehend the medical treatment by suggestion. The diversity of this influence is similar to the diversity of illnesses. Complications are possible to occur when this condition is broken.

V. Lebedev
Doctor of psychological sciences

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Post by joasia »

Drew,

Christ is born! Glorify Him!

All I can offer is my simple understanding of the Orthodox faith.

I still hold that God can do whatever He wants (and can never be limited by our teachings), including giving the stigmata. Who knows, maybe God did give the stigmata to St. Francis as a test to see if he would stick in his pride, or follow Him. I wonder though, Padre Pio had the stigmata, but from what I have heard, was a very holy man. But, such things like your writings above make me even wearier of the stigmata.

God does do whatever He wills. But, the point that is being made is that the stigmata is not the way God works...it is a form of deception. The evil one has many ways of deceiving us. The holy fathers taught that the stigmata is a dillusion, that comes from pride. Who knows what the person was going through, but that person was attacked by demonic illusions. Like I mentioned earlier, the stigmata, (to the catholic church and other religions) is considered a suffering equal to Christ's suffering. That is not possible. Christ is God and no created being can suffer like God. It becomes blasphemy.

Good point , but just because the West may have split from the East out of pride, doesn't mean that there haven't been some holy Catholics. It is certainly possible.

Because the West split from the East(the Great Schism) is the ultimate example of pride. They became heretics. They introduced the Filioque. They wanted to be the boss of everything. They taught that the Theotokos(Virgin Mary) was conceived immaculately. They changed the direction of how we should cross ourselves. And there are many other examples, but the main fact is that the Holy Fire appears during Orthodox Pascha and not during the Catholic Easter.

There are no saints in the catholic church. There may have been very good people, but they didn't live in the true Church of Christ. They cannot be elevated to the same status as St. Nicholas, St John Chrysostomos, St. Basil the Great, St. Seraphim of Sarov etc. I name only a few.

The Orthodox faith is the true lineage, if you will, of the ancient Christian church because it upholds the ancient teachings of Christ, with no alterations. The catholics made their changes and the protestants split from them.

Really, you have to ask yourself...do you want to follow the true teachings of Christ? The holy fathers are your best resources. Explore and discover the faith.

In Christ,

Joanna

Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me. (Ps. 50)

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