+Metropolitan Herman (OCA): Nativity Epistle

[Jean-Serge]

St Wladimir emissaries were in a quest to find the true faith... It was normal for them to be allowed to see the service. But in our case, these men are reprensatative of their churches to fulfill diplomatical tasks... Showing the good relations etc... Typically an ecumenist behavior. A "come an see" stand would say to all heterodox and not only to their hierarchay (that will never convert) come and see and learn about orthodox faiths...

But the ecumenist are so naive and perverse that they focus on the hierarchy of heretics instead of doing a real mission and reaching the basic heterodox guy. This pics are another illustration of this...

[Kollyvas]

I would never presume to judge men's hearts and I believe in the salvific power of grace. It seems a Saul of Tarsus came to see the light once...But for anyone to call me an ecumenist--LOL!!!
R

[Justin Kissel]

The traditionnal ecumenist argument : we are witnessing....bababababbababa.... Did the apostles invite heterodox to witness their services like spectators?

Yes. They were called Emperors. So long as it was not an emperor who was completely anti-Christian (e.g., Julian the Apostate), Emperors had free reign to do whatever they wanted in the Church, including going back by the altar. There were a few fiery exceptions, such as St. Ambrose refusing Theodosius entrance to the Church, but by and large this was the exception and not the rule, even among saints.

Today, on the other hand, rather than an imperial government set within an agricultural culture, we instead have a pluralistic, urbanized culture with a Republican/Democratic government. Completely different things, and I believe reason enough to give more leniency. The strange part though is that we are actually, comparitively speaking, more careful. We now allow non-Orthodox to see the entire service... yet in regard to letting non-Orthodox and non-males by the altar, we are just as strict today.

I don't think you should deride Churches for such things happening today unless you would also be willing to go back and deride St. Nektarios of Constantinople, St. Photius the Great, etc. for allowing emperors with shady motivations and even shadier deeds back into the holiest of places to sit and daydream about conquest. These representatives may indeed never change their faiths, but playing the isolationist won't help either. Jesus Christ said to let our light shine, and not to put it under a basket. We should not extinguish our flaming candle by slamming the Rudder down onto it.

[joasia]

Jean-Serge,

I have to disagree with your stance. I was catholic and if I wasn't given the chance to see the Orthodox services(in a Greek New Calendar Church), I probably never would have converted. Because, then I would never have known what I was truely missing. Don't assume that non-Orthodox who come into the Orthodox Church are all just there for entertainment. You don't know what's in their hearts. And you don't know the faith that God is stirring in them. It's a great blessing from God that non-Orthodox are inspired to come into an Orthodox church.

When Brother Jose brought the miracle icon of the Theotokos to Montreal, St Nicholas Cathedral was packed and there were many Catholics there. I would have brought my parents also, but I wasn't going to St. Nicholas, at the time. I think it was before I converted. Would it be wrong to bring non-Orthodox to see a miracle icon? Something they would never have seen otherwise?

Your arguement reminds me of a Russian man who once said that non-Russians can never really be true Orthodox. How lame is that explanation?

I'm an Orthodox traditionalist, but I know that I have to give the benefit of the doubt. The worst sin is to make a final judgement, because judgement of the a person's heart is only for God to make. I have opinions, but God's love goes beyond all prejudices. Afterall, the saints wouldn't turn non-Orthodox away. They would talk to them about God's love.

I believe that Kollyvas' views are of a good heart. Not political and not ecumenist. His Orthodox stance has always been clearly expressed in previous posts.

In Christ,

Joanna

[Jean-Serge]

I suppose they were officially invited... This is ecumenism.

Do you know the facts? Or, do you reflexively assume the worst case?

Inviting somebody to attend an Orthodox service, standing among the congregation, is not "ecumenism." If anything, it is evangelism. "Ecumenism" would have been to invite non-Orthodox ministers to enter the altar, stand within the kliros, or so forth.

Orthodox6
(who continues to pray that your residency situation be resolved as God wills for your welfare)

I do not know the fact but I think it is very possible it was an invitation. I am not against inviting heterodox laymen, but when you invite an heterodox cleric, it smells ecumenical diplomacy... And after that you will see Orthodox clerics witnessing heterodox services... I think that none of you has bad intentions, but I am very suspicious. First invitation and after that joint services... You may be right but I am very suspicious.

I do not advocate for isolationnism! If you read my words, you will see I advocate for a dialogue with the basic heterodox, a mission targeting him... because I realize the dialogue at high level (theologians or bishops) fails to produce many conversions and does not present a clear image of orthodoxy to the basic heterodox man (because he is not very interested in the meeting between his hierarchy and the Orthodox hierarchy; he may even think we are in comunion and that all problem are solved)... At the contrary, most conversion comes from personal initiatives that did not go through hierarchical relations...

[Jean-Serge]

Could you imagine the Fathers of the Church, inviting clerics from heretic churches to witness Orthodox services? Did they do so? Why or why not?

[Kollyvas]

Even though the Patristic era had a different context, I seem to remember in the life of Blessed Augustine that he, as a manichean, was invited to Catholic (Orthodox) services...and I believe he was a manichaean cleric; moreover, it was common practice in Gaul and Germania, for instance, for the Catholics (Orthodox) to witness to arians and semi-arians, cleric and lay alike.
R