Traditional Orthodox Churches in North Carolina

Joseph · Post by **Joseph** » Wed 30 March 2005 10:17 pm

TomS,

I am not stating my opinion but that of the Church. The Church teaches that Roman, Monophysite, Syncretism and Protestant doctrines as embraced in the WCC and Ecumenism are false and outside of the Church and that we are to flee from them and have no communion with them. If you will read The Touchstone, Against False Union and the life of St. Maximos, St. Photios and St. Mark of Ephesus, to mention only a few, you will see this is true. Any teaching different from this as set forth in the Councils and by the Fathers is not that of the Church.

If you disagree with this, please tell me where you are getting your teachings about the Church. Who in the Church has ever taught the things you are teaching? Can you give me some references or quotes?

TomS · Post by **TomS** » Wed 30 March 2005 10:22 pm

joseph b wrote:
Who in the Church has ever taught the things you are teaching? Can you give me some references or quotes?

Dude. You cannot take writings of the Fathers written to apply to Pagans and Herestics and try to apply them to Orthodoxy.

Follow your Bishops -- Or do they no longer have GRACE in your eyes?

Who are YOU to judge the Bishops?

joasia · Post by **joasia** » Wed 30 March 2005 10:38 pm

OOD,

I think your assesment is jumping the gun. And it's unfair. But, you have already planted the seed and Jim seems to have accepted it as written in stone.

I belong to ROCOR and I believe that there are many clergy struggling to preserve the truth, as well as in the Greek new calendar, OCA and other synods. The division between the true church of Christ and the fake have yet to make it's final transformation. When that happens there will be a new restructuring of the churches. I believe that many people, who believe in preserving the Seven Ecumenical Councils and the traditions of Orthodoxy will come together and will become distinctively seperate from the church of the anti-chirst. The vision of St. John of Krondstadt made that clear. Right now, we are all in an inbetween state, with the Grace of economia.

I also believe that the Holy Spirit is present in ROCOR and in the other Orthodox jurisdictions, despite the actions of many clergy. God would not abandon His flock.

Don't make Jim prejudice about jurisdictions, before he can even understand what the Orthodox faith means.

Jim, don't let yourself get caught up in the confusion about jurisdictions. It will become your whole focus and that's not what you seem to be looking for. You seem to be looking for the true faith.

That, you will find, in reading the writings and lives of the saints who preserved the true faith that God wanted us to understand. God will show you the way.

Welcome to the battlefield...you have a great struggle ahead because you are starting to seek the truth. The evil one hates that. he's already trying to confuse you.

In Christ,

Joanna

Joseph · Post by **Joseph** » Wed 30 March 2005 11:00 pm

You did not reference any sources for your teachings. What Council or what Father has ever taught us to follow bishops who are teaching heresy?

"We forbid all the clergy who adhere to the Orthodox and Ecumenical Council in any way to submit to the bishops who have already apostatized or shall hereafter apostatize." Third Canon, Third Ecumenical Council

"Concerning the Faith, the heretics were totally shipwrecked; but as for othere, even if in their thinking they did not founder, nonetheless, because of their communion with heresy, they too were destroyed with the others." St. Theodore the Studite.

"...As for those who on account of some heresy condemned by the Holy Councils or Fathers, sever themselves from communion with their bishop, that is, because he publicly preaches heresy and with bared head teaches it in the Church, such persons as these not only are not subject to canonical penalty for walling themselves off from communion with the so-called Bishop before synodal clarification, but they shall be deemed worthy of due honor among the Orthodox. For not Bishops but false bishops and false teachers have they condemned, and they have not fragmented the Church's unity with schism, but from schism and divisions have they earnestly sought to deliver the Church."
Fifteenth Canon of the First-Second Council of Constantinople

"I adjure all the people in Cyprus who are true children of the Catholic Church to flee as fast as their feet can carry them from those priests who have fallen and submitted to the Latins; neither assemble in church with them, nor receive any blessing from their hands. For it is better for you to pray to God in your homes alone than to gather in churches with the Latin-minded." Germanos II, Pat. of Constantinople

"He that saith not 'Anathema' to those in heresy, let him be anathema."
Seventh Ecumenical Council

"Is the shepherd a heretic? Then he is a wolf! You must flee from him; do not be deceived to approach him even if he appears gentle and tame. Flee from communion and conversation with him even as you would flee from a poisonous snake." St. Photios the Great

"I am convinced that the further I depart from the Patriarch and from those like him [the Latin-minded], the closer do I draw near to God and to all the faithful and the holy Fathers; and the more I am separated from them, by so much more am I united to the truth and the holy Fathers." St. Mark of Ephesus

"Even is one should give away all his possessions in the world, and yet be in communion with heresy, he cannot be a friend of God, but is rather an enemy." St. Theodore the Studite

"If there come any unto you and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deed." II John 9-11

" Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not according to the tradition which he received from us." II Thess. 3:6

"All the teachers of the Church, all the Councils, and all the Divine Scriptures, exhort us to flee those who uphold other doctrines and to separate from communion with them." St. Mark of Ephesus

"With a great voice, St. John Chrysostom declared that not only heretics, but also they who hold communion with them are enemies of God." St. Theodore the Studite

"Let a bishop, presbyter, or deacon who only joins in prayer with heretics be suspended; if he permits them to funciton as clergy, be deposed." 45th Apostolic Canon

"If any clergyman or layman, enter a synagogue of Jews, or of heretics, to pray, let him be deposed and excommunicated." 65th Apostolci Canon

Once again, Tom, please tell me what Councils or Fathers teach the things you are teaching?

TomS · Post by **TomS** » Wed 30 March 2005 11:02 pm

Joseph p,

Do you think your whole Church is wrong?

You pick and choose writings from the Fathers like the Protestants pick out scripture. That does not cut it. I can prove anything you want by doing that.

joasia wrote:
Jim, don't let yourself get caught up in the confusion about jurisdictions. It will become your whole focus and that's not what you seem to be looking for.

Wow. My Lady - I am impressed! Good post!

Joseph · Post by **Joseph** » Thu 31 March 2005 8:42 am

Tom,

You use the word Church to refer to anything that calls itself Orthodox. I use the word to refer to those who truly hold the Orthodox Faith.

I am still waiting for you to tell me from what Fathers or Councils you draw your teachings. Which of the Fathers teach us to remain with bishops who teach false doctrine or have communion with heretics? Since you can prove anything from the Fathers, this shouldn't be too hard for you.

The opinions of Joanna are just that - here private opinions. Where does any Father or Council tell us to wait for some big event that is going to let us know that now is the time? What more do we need than the so called lifting of the anathemas, the joint celebration of the liturgy with the pope, the kiss of peace, the declaration that we are sister churches, the Balamand Agreement, the Agreed Statement, the acceptance of Lutheran sacraments and communion with the Monophysites? World Orthodoxy is already de facto in communion with Rome and Protestanstism while everyone is sitting around waiting for the other shoe to drop. In the time of St. Photios, as soon as it was made known that a false agreement had been signed with Rome, the faithful bishops told their people to stop attending the churches of those who had fallen and the false churches were left empty of the faithful. St. Maximus and St. Mark did not wait for any such big event or ingathering or whatever it is that peopel are waiting for. This kind of thinking has no basis except in private opinions.

Chrysostomos · Post by **Chrysostomos** » Thu 31 March 2005 4:03 pm

Joseph,

I'll leave a quote from Elder Paisios the Athonite:

"The goal of reading is the application, in our lives, of what we read. Not to learn it by heart, but to take it to heart. Not to practice using our tongues, but to be able to receive the tongues of fire and to live the mysteries of God. If one studies a great deal in order to acquire knowledge and to teach others, without living the things he teaches, he does no more than fill his head with hot air. At most he will manage to ascend to the moon using machines. The goal of the Christian is to rise to God without machines."

I choose the path expressed by St. Gregory Palamas, and others.

That of the path of Purification, Illumination, and Perfection (Divination). Without a doubt I am in the purification stage, an infant no less. Applying this therapy, prescribed by the Church, is much more difficult than reading and quoting canons and exchanging remarks to one another.

By God's grace, I am in the process of applying the therapy that has been advocated by the Church. Now you may tell me, that due to my attending an OCA Church that I am doomed, that I need to attend one of which you or someone else believes is more Orthodox. That by attending that Jurisdiction, I can be much more assured of my salvation then attending the OCA Church. My response would be, I will apply the therapy, as best I can, and God willing, if I am able to be purified, then God willing I will be illumined. Once illumined, perhaps I would be able to better instruct others. I realize though, the more I go down this path, the more sinful I realize I am, and that I am honestly in no position to judge others. I can only encourage those who are Orthodox Christians, and continue to encourage them to "press towards the mark" of the high calling of Christ Jesus. Our Lord said "If I be lifted up". Not, if OCA, ROCOR, HOCNA, canons, etc., be lifted up. I believe in One Lord, one faith, one baptism. I'd rather spend my time in unifying the Orthodox faith, then discussing why you or someone else doesn't measure up.

May we all rise to God without machines....

With humble bow,

Rd. Chrysostomos