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Hexapsalms
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Posts: 52
Joined: Thu 16 September 2004 10:24 am

Post by Hexapsalms »

Brendan--

No one here is advocating abandoning evangelizing the whites, but how to do so is very problemmatic as you say. This has been a much discussed problem and I've seen numerous ideas tried out, but so far I've haven't heard of much success. In most cases, white Americans and Europeans are in positions of power and influence and could do a lot of good for the Christian cause if they were Christian, but most of them now are emphatically not Christian. There are lots of reasons for this--the list is very long. If you have ideas about how to evangelize hard-hearted whites (without swerving off into the White Power fascist agenda), let's hear it. You mentioned how Orthodoxy might offer a solution, please expand on that.

Many non-white Christians (mostly Protestants and Catholics) from 3rd world countries are coming to post-Christian Europe to evangelize it. They may make more headway in helping white folks to see Christianity in fresh ways, and bring new insights not usually seen by Westerners. Orthodoxy is part of this new kind of evangelism movement, being non-Western and sometimes non-white. For western whites to evangelize to other whites has become ineffectual--something akin to "a prophet is not honored in his own country". Let's hope these other peoples will make more spiritual headway with the "white" but very spiritually adrift Europeans and Americans than the muslims are.

Certainly I don't quarrel of what you're saying that we should take responsibility and not make ourselves Saints by martyring our descendents. I do not discourage your concern and your desire to defend the Church, but do go at this with wisdom, acknowledging at least who your friends in this struggle may be (they could very well be non-white Christians who already know all about martyrdom).

gphadraig
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Posts: 195
Joined: Mon 23 August 2004 4:19 pm

Post by gphadraig »

Surely the Christian message is for all. However in 'post-Christian' Europe and among many in Caucasians in North America there seems to be an unwillingness or disdain for the tired 'offerings' of something that appears tired, tiresome and irrelevant (as they see it). Christ knocks on their door but the occupant appears unwilling to open to Him.

In other areas of the world and among other peoples there appears to be a greater value placed on the spiritual. Not everything is judged solely by material advance. This was something very much brought home to me during a recent visit to Western India, and in conversation with non-Caucasians back home. People, strangers wanted to discuss prayer life, worship and the spiritual.

In an article headed the "Tenth Anniversary of Orthodox Mission in Madagascar", The Shepherd, October, 2004, http://www.saintedwardbrotherhood.org, page 11, it is noticeable that when Father Nectarios (Kellis) went there the Greeks were not interested but the Malagasy people were and a great mission grow out of this priest's pastoral endeavours. This is but one example.

(Father Nectarios later became a bishop and was sadly one of those killed in the helicopter with the late Patriach Petros).

brendan

Post by brendan »

Hexapsalms wrote:

Brendan--

No one here is advocating abandoning evangelizing the whites, but how to do so is very problemmatic as you say. This has been a much discussed problem and I've seen numerous ideas tried out, but so far I've haven't heard of much success. In most cases, white Americans and Europeans are in positions of power and influence and could do a lot of good for the Christian cause if they were Christian, but most of them now are emphatically not Christian. There are lots of reasons for this--the list is very long. If you have ideas about how to evangelize hard-hearted whites (without swerving off into the White Power fascist agenda), let's hear it. You mentioned how Orthodoxy might offer a solution, please expand on that.

I previously mentioned the alienation that exists among many white people. For the past 50 years we have been saturation bombed with anti-white propaganda to the point that most white people, to some degree, feel ashamed to be white - as if all other races are saintly and whites, above all other people, are particularly murderous, dishonest, contribute nothing of value to the world and do nothing but steal from and exploit others. Due to this, many people have been alienated from Christianity too as part of the white western cultural nexus.

Now, as you mentioned, Orthodoxy, not being linked to the western Christian experience, escapes some of that guilt-by-association thinking. But while these things contribute in large part, I think there's another angle that I'm certainly not the first to point out. Namely, the liberal subversion that is undermining Protestantism and the homosexual scandals in the RCC make Orthodoxy of interest to people who are tired of those problems. There are many people who are sick of it and yearn for an authentic Christianity that doesn't swing like a weather vane to the lastest social trend or isn't constantly revising or re-interpreting the Scriptures to permit some kind of pernicious moral subversion.

Having said that, I think there are a couple of difficulties that remain. This is my personal view, of course, only an opinion, but based on my experiences with trying to introduce people, mainly Protestants, to Orthodox Christianity.

Briefly, the issues boil down to only two:

  1. There's seems to be a shortage of Orthodox literature that is written in a concise and easy to understand format. I know I experienced this myself. Lets say I wanted to know about some aspect of theology from a total beginners point of view. It seemed like even the books that attempted to do this, were pretty longwinded and dealt with too many secondary points before getting to the main point. Or there's the material which seems to be more directed to children but which is TOO simple for adults.

  2. Making way with Protestants requires a sustained and theologically-sound effort to simply overcome the strong anti-Catholic mindset that exists - if the Catholics do something, it has to be bad. The main issues which I run into trouble on are: veneration of the Mother of God, the Orthodox position that marriage is not ended with the death of one or both spouses, seeking the prayers of Saints, and a few others. Many Protestants will use these issues as a kind of litmus test and any answer will have to be accomplished using only Scripture or a reasonable and clear inference of Scripture. If this cannot be done, they will simply disregard Holy Tradition and label it "traditions of men." Trying to convince them using Tradition only is a waste of time.

Hexapsalms
Jr Member
Posts: 52
Joined: Thu 16 September 2004 10:24 am

Post by Hexapsalms »

Brendan--

From personal experience and observation, I do acknowledge the way "multi-culturalism" is practiced in this country does push white people and their culture out of the picture, especially in the education system and in the media. When I was helping the Afghan family, one of their children who needed my help with his school homework asked me why the books he had to use was so full of everyone else's history and culture except the European American. He was only 9 years old, only a few months in this country, but he understood political correctness when he saw it.

I am beginning to understand why this issue about the white people is important to you. It's true that over the last 50 years, Western civilization has been practicing a form of political and cultural self-multilation and flagellation over the sins of their ancestors, which I think needs to stop because it's doing more harm now than good. However, it was not good that the accomplishments of other races who had given their sweat and blood to build this country had been almost totally ignored in our history books. They are citizens too, and if they had been allowed to pursue the American dream without harassment, maybe there would not be some of the problems and vengeful hostilities towards this culture we see now.

For the record, I will say white folks are no worse sinners than anyone else in this world. Every race practiced some form of colonialism. Who began the practice of slavery? No one knows. Did whites sell other races into slavery? Yes, but slavery was practiced by nearly all races throughout the world in all the ages right down to the present day. But while slavery is still practiced in many parts of the world today and even on the increase, who is NOT practicing slavery now? White Europeans and Americans. WHY? Because of their superior breeding? Their superior technical culture? NO! It's because of CHRISTIANITY, which contrary to paganism, sees the victim as someone that God especially loves (as His Son was a victim), not as someone on whom the Fates have fallen, not as someone who deserved this destiny because of some inferiority. It took many centuries for European Christians, and later American Christians, to understand the depths of the Gospel in regard to the victim. Even then, a civil war had to be fought to end this practice. There were no wars over slavery in other non-Christian cultures (that I know of). Why? Because in those culture the victim remains a nobody.

There is an excellent article to illustrate this by Philip Yancey in the 2/8/1999 issue of Christianity Today entitled "Why I can feel your pain" In it he says: "...the gospel set loose something new in history: (quoting Gil Baillie) 'the most astonishing reversal of values in human history. Today the victim occupies the moral high ground everywhere in the Western world.' Women, minorities, the disabled, environmental and human rights activists--al these draw their moral force from the power of the gospel unleashed at the Cross, when God took the side of the victim. In a great irony, the "politically correct" movement defending these rights often postions itself as an enemy of Christianity, when in fact the gospel has contributed the very underpinnings that make possible such a movement." So maybe what's going on that's tearing down the "white" culture isn't so much directed at the whites, but at the Christian culture that white people had identified themselves with for centuries.

It's not altogether true, as you say, that white people are alienated from Christianity because it represents the now-hated "white western cultural nexus." How would you explain the first major revolt against Christianity that happened during the French Revolution of the 18th century? It was not simply an anti-Catholic movement, nor was it an anti-Western movement, but it was definitely a full-fledged anti-Christian, neo-pagan movement that continues today. The ancient European paganism never totally went away when Christianity spread throughout Europe, beginning its resurgence among philosophers and spiritual explorers in the Middle Ages. Something more insidious is at work here of which the current bashing of Western culture represents only one small part.

The question ought to be asked is why Christianity, eastern or western, has had such a hard time standing up to resurging paganism and secularism. Why does it allow itself to become corrupted with false doctrines and practices? Why does it allow wolves among the sheep? A muslim asked me earlier this year why the Anglicans ordained a homosexual bishop. He wouldn't listen to my explanation that the Anglicans are liberals who are being sinful. He said: "I don't care, who is liberal or conservative. You are all Christians. I see no difference."

That aside--I agree with you that Orthdoxy may offer Westerners a chance to taste authentic Christianity. I can see why Protestants can get hung up on Tradition, especially when they don't have a clear idea of what the Body of Christ (the Church) means. Their approach to Christianity is entirely personal and psychological, the very mind-set that would pull apart the idea of the Church as one body.

I just hope Orthodoxy is up to this challenge to evangelize Westerners. I have my doubts because the perception is (and not without reason) that Orthodoxy is only for Russians or Greeks. It's only been in the last 30-40 years that Orthodoxy has begun to reach out to the West. Only recently have the liturgies and other Orthodox literature been translated into western languages. So it is an uphill battle to get any kind of literature published for westerners, let alone the simple catechisms that you want to use among Protestants. But progress is being made.

So here is a challenge for any Orthodox writer and publisher.

gphadraig
Member
Posts: 195
Joined: Mon 23 August 2004 4:19 pm

Post by gphadraig »

Brendan,

I am reflecting on your points about literature on Orthodoxy, and in particular the points of likely difficulty for protestant enquirers.

Your statement that 'most whites feeling ashamed, to some degree, to be white' I query. First, it is always difficult when speaking or writing on behalf of others. Certainly the phenomena you refer to I have met in some and there appear to some who appear to expect 'whites' to be ashamed. For myself I am not. My forbears were not involved in this trade, save far back when the dealing in slaves was between warring peoples in Ireland and across the water. My own forbears experienced such oppression that over 800 years that I look any in the eye without apology save for that that I am responsible. Slavery existed since ancient times and continues, sadly, into the present. Bigotry and prejudice stemming from contact between different groups finding themselves more recently in contact is both real and should not be glossed over, me thinks. Again, are we to hang on to past slights and be angry and vengeful victims or make what we can of available opportunities, with God's help and our own efforts?

The past is rich in material from we may learn, for good or ill. In a recent BBC television programme, using DNA techniques, a number of 'black' people re-discovered partially their ancestry. While some found it enriching others found the particular test pointed to Europe as the origin of some of their ancestors. Are they to love one side of themselves and hate the other, expecting it to be ashamed? Are those from racially mixed couples to hate one parent and identify only with the other? Because we all are a mix, if you look hard enough.

If others try to impose a 'guilt complex' why take it up? One's sins are surely already enough to reflect upon. It feels to me that some 'social engineers' try to get us to engage in a 'people game'. As a health professional my advice to my patients was always to decline the invitation to play others' people games. If that's their agenda fine, but if you don't want to play walk on................. The test is how we as individuals treat others. My mother taught me to treat all with respect, no matter what their apparent station in life. My shame is for those times I fail in this, not when some one measures my behaviour or thinking according to a paradigm I don't share and finds me wanting.

brendan

Post by brendan »

Hexapsalms wrote:

Brendan--

From personal experience and observation, I do acknowledge the way "multi-culturalism" is practiced in this country does push white people and their culture out of the picture, especially in the education system and in the media. When I was helping the Afghan family, one of their children who needed my help with his school homework asked me why the books he had to use was so full of everyone else's history and culture except the European American. He was only 9 years old, only a few months in this country, but he understood political correctness when he saw it.

Interesting story. It is indeed odd that a foreign child notices this, yet millions of native-born Americans would either deny it or say that multiculturalism is proper.

I am beginning to understand why this issue about the white people is important to you. It's true that over the last 50 years, Western civilization has been practicing a form of political and cultural self-multilation and flagellation over the sins of their ancestors, which I think needs to stop because it's doing more harm now than good. However, it was not good that the accomplishments of other races who had given their sweat and blood to build this country had been almost totally ignored in our history books. They are citizens too, and if they had been allowed to pursue the American dream without harassment, maybe there would not be some of the problems and vengeful hostilities towards this culture we see now.

First, it is true that other races contributed, but in the overall picture these accomplishments were non-essential. I realize some people will be offended by that, but I think its factually true. Yes, the Chinese immigrants, for example, helped build the western railways in the 1800s, but it would be incredible to think the railways wouldn't have been built without these immigrants. If the Chinese weren't available, they railroads would have had to pay a little more to attract white workers. After all, there were already thousands of Irish immigrants building the railroads at the same time. The use of Chinese labor was mostly an expedient used by big business to save some money.

As to this idea that minorities were constantly subjected to harrassment, I disagree with that. Not that it didn't happen in some places at some time, but I don't think it was a general practice in most places. In my area, for example, there never were segregated schools or segregated housing. And the black population was always small, maybe around 10%. There were blacks in my school and in all the years of attending public school I can't recall even one case of racial harrassment of blacks or overt discrimination. We went to the same schools and blacks were free to take advantage of education as much as whites. This was the case for generations. I have my grandfather's high school yearbooks and there were black highschool graduates even back in the 1920s. Also something that's never mentioned is many white people routinely helped the blacks. My wife's family used to give their black neighbors clothes and food and let them even borrow their truck.

The only real line that existed was that people were universally opposed to interracial marriage. I hardly would consider that to harrassment. Many blacks also opposed interracial marriage. One black told me his parents warned the kids that they "Didn't want no cream in the coffee."

For the record, I will say white folks are no worse sinners than anyone else in this world. Every race practiced some form of colonialism. Who began the practice of slavery? No one knows. Did whites sell other races into slavery? Yes, but slavery was practiced by nearly all races throughout the world in all the ages right down to the present day. But while slavery is still practiced in many parts of the world today and even on the increase, who is NOT practicing slavery now? White Europeans and Americans. WHY? Because of their superior breeding? Their superior technical culture? NO! It's because of CHRISTIANITY, which contrary to paganism, sees the victim as someone that God especially loves (as His Son was a victim), not as someone on whom the Fates have fallen, not as someone who deserved this destiny because of some inferiority. It took many centuries for European Christians, and later American Christians, to understand the depths of the Gospel in regard to the victim. Even then, a civil war had to be fought to end this practice. There were no wars over slavery in other non-Christian cultures (that I know of). Why? Because in those culture the victim remains a nobody.

I would generally agree with everything you just said. Unfortunately, none of that seems to gain whites any points with the blacks. Its too bad that the racial situation has degenerated into a zero sum game, one in which any concession by whites only seems to encourage more demands from blacks. For example, in Martin Luther King's day, the demand was only for equal rights. But that was quickly followed by demands for affirmative action and institutional policies that discriminate against whites. Now there's increasing clamour for reparation payments. There's no end in sight.

There is an excellent article to illustrate this by Philip Yancey in the 2/8/1999 issue of Christianity Today entitled "Why I can feel your pain" In it he says: "...the gospel set loose something new in history: (quoting Gil Baillie) 'the most astonishing reversal of values in human history. Today the victim occupies the moral high ground everywhere in the Western world.' Women, minorities, the disabled, environmental and human rights activists--al these draw their moral force from the power of the gospel unleashed at the Cross, when God took the side of the victim. In a great irony, the "politically correct" movement defending these rights often postions itself as an enemy of Christianity, when in fact the gospel has contributed the very underpinnings that make possible such a movement." So maybe what's going on that's tearing down the "white" culture isn't so much directed at the whites, but at the Christian culture that white people had identified themselves with for centuries.

In many instances its hard to distinguish whether the main target is white people, western civilization, or Christianity. Indeed the the enemies may deliberately change targets for tactical reasons depending on the situation. I think the way to view this situation is from the enemy's perspective: white, western and Christian are more or less synonymous, so as long as at least one of those are being attacked, their purpose is being served. I think we can agree, however, that Christianity will be under attack anytime the anti-Christ forces have the opportunity.

It's not altogether true, as you say, that white people are alienated from Christianity because it represents the now-hated "white western cultural nexus." How would you explain the first major revolt against Christianity that happened during the French Revolution of the 18th century? It was not simply an anti-Catholic movement, nor was it an anti-Western movement, but it was definitely a full-fledged anti-Christian, neo-pagan movement that continues today.

You are correct in that the French Revolution wasn't a attack on white people. I view the FR as basically a revolt of nihilism, sentimentalism, pathological liberalism, and emotionalism. It was a precusor to the Bolshevik Revolution in Russia. Both cases were fundamentally anti-Christian as are all such movements.

The ancient European paganism never totally went away when Christianity spread throughout Europe, beginning its resurgence among philosophers and spiritual explorers in the Middle Ages. Something more insidious is at work here of which the current bashing of Western culture represents only one small part.

This is true and, as you mention, these people have been around a long time, but they were never able to gain power. So the question becomes what caused them to suddenly arise and gain so much influence? There are many explanations. Prof. MacDonald claims that what happened was a coalescence of these pre-existing forces with the radical Jews who came into America out of Russia and Europe in the early to middle 20th century. We had the early Bosheviks who left Russia and operated out of New York City in the pre-Bolshevik days and then the second influx that occurred with Hitler's rise to power in the 1930s - the social marxists of the Frankfurt School being the most well-know of the latter.

The question ought to be asked is why Christianity, eastern or western, has had such a hard time standing up to resurging paganism and secularism. Why does it allow itself to become corrupted with false doctrines and practices? Why does it allow wolves among the sheep? A muslim asked me earlier this year why the Anglicans ordained a homosexual bishop. He wouldn't listen to my explanation that the Anglicans are liberals who are being sinful. He said: "I don't care, who is liberal or conservative. You are all Christians. I see no difference."

I have gotten into many debates with these pagan types, some heated. Their main problem with Christianity stems, I think, basically from the frustration that modern Christianity has been largely undermined and has become weak, effeminent, and lost its fighting spirit. The Christian churches, despite still having substantial memberships, seem unable to affect positive change. The pagans see themselves as something forceful and uncompromising and possessing the warrior spirit that is needed to set things right. They want to sweep away everything that is weak, corrupt, and effeminent. In their minds, the main source of our problems is that Christianity has weakened the society.

Of course, these pagans are under satanic influence and many are more nihilistic than idealistic, but I hate to admit that the churches have certainly fueled the growth of paganism by their toleration of corruption. With every financial scandal or exposure of a pedophile priest, the pagans say "See, its all rotten."

That aside--I agree with you that Orthdoxy may offer Westerners a chance to taste authentic Christianity. I can see why Protestants can get hung up on Tradition, especially when they don't have a clear idea of what the Body of Christ (the Church) means. Their approach to Christianity is entirely personal and psychological, the very mind-set that would pull apart the idea of the Church as one body.

Yes, this individualistic mindset in Protestantism is something that can be hard to deal with. I think at some level it gets down to a lack of trust in Christian institutions. These people say they will adhere to what they think the Bible says and not what any church tells them. They don't trust institutional churches.

It also a fact that many Protestants are well-read in the Scriptures and in comparison, many Orthodox people aren't. That is a difficulty that should be dealt with if we hope to have significant success with them. If that problem can be overcome, I really think its possible to gain many converts. In this era of confusion, people are looking for the kind of stability Orthodoxy represents. Not just represents, but actually is. But getting people to open their mind initially is the main obstacle, IMHO.

brendan

Post by brendan »

gphadraig wrote:

Brendan,

I am reflecting on your points about literature on Orthodoxy, and in particular the points of likely difficulty for protestant enquirers.

Your statement that 'most whites feeling ashamed, to some degree, to be white' I query. First, it is always difficult when speaking or writing on behalf of others. Certainly the phenomena you refer to I have met in some and there appear to some who appear to expect 'whites' to be ashamed. For myself I am not. My forbears were not involved in this trade, save far back when the dealing in slaves was between warring peoples in Ireland and across the water. My own forbears experienced such oppression that over 800 years that I look any in the eye without apology save for that that I am responsible. Slavery existed since ancient times and continues, sadly, into the present. Bigotry and prejudice stemming from contact between different groups finding themselves more recently in contact is both real and should not be glossed over, me thinks. Again, are we to hang on to past slights and be angry and vengeful victims or make what we can of available opportunities, with God's help and our own efforts?

Certainly the facts you mention would dispel the propaganda that we get in the movies and media. But how many stories dealing with black slavery in America ever mention the fact that slavery was an institution in Africa for centuries before Europeans arrived and the slaves were captured by black slave catchers and sold to the Europeans by black slave traders? That part is conveniently left out because it would largely negate the white guilt angle that's that's promoted. These are facts that a person must find out for themselves. Its not taught in the schools or shown in the media. All that's shown is the part that will reflect the worst on white people.

The past is rich in material from we may learn, for good or ill. In a recent BBC television programme, using DNA techniques, a number of 'black' people re-discovered partially their ancestry. While some found it enriching others found the particular test pointed to Europe as the origin of some of their ancestors. Are they to love one side of themselves and hate the other, expecting it to be ashamed? Are those from racially mixed couples to hate one parent and identify only with the other? Because we all are a mix, if you look hard enough.

That's technically true, but adding one drop of black to a gallon of white paint doesn't suddenly turn the whole gallon black. Likewise, just because it could be proven that some white person had a black ancestor twenty generations ago doesn't make that person black. We have white people here in America, who think that they have some small amount of American Indian blood, and then start identifying with the Indians. As a genealogist, I've found that many of these claims of Indian ancestry are not true. Some people apparently think its fashionable to claim some Indian ancestry. I think its a way to resolve the white guilt thing. They rationalize that since they some miniscule amount of Indian blood, then that means they had ancestors on both sides, so this obsolves them of any guilt. Of course, I suspect the Indians probably laugh at this kind of silly behavior and would never accept such a person as an Indian.

If others try to impose a 'guilt complex' why take it up? One's sins are surely already enough to reflect upon. It feels to me that some 'social engineers' try to get us to engage in a 'people game'. As a health professional my advice to my patients was always to decline the invitation to play others' people games. If that's their agenda fine, but if you don't want to play walk on.................

I agree. People should reject it. Its politically-motivated anyway.

The test is how we as individuals treat others. My mother taught me to treat all with respect, no matter what their apparent station in life. My shame is for those times I fail in this, not when some one measures my behaviour or thinking according to a paradigm I don't share and finds me wanting.

I deal with individuals as individuals, but I am still mindful of larger dynamics within the society and the fact that groups routinely organize along racial and ethic lines to pursue various agendas they perceive to be in their respective interest. The only group that presently doesn't do this is white people. I expect this will dramatically change over the next few decades as whites lose their majority position in America. We will be faced with the situation of either standing up for our interests or being subjected to everyone else's. I think group consciousness will be forced on us whether we all want it or not.

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