ROAC pronounces verdict on grace?

[ania]

TomS, the cult thing was actually the first thing I thought when you mentioned Kool-Aid... why they chose Kool-Aid I will never know, it tastes disgusting, and if I were to want to leave this earthly life, I would drink something a little bit better... Midori Sour perhaps...

[CGW]

I think we should lighten up on these ROAC and other such "Traditionalist" jurisdictions. You see, if we malign them we do the same as they.

I don't do the same as they, because I personally, in my own church, have no use at all for jurisdictional battles. I have no use for saying who does and does not have grace, because I read the gospels and know this to be a heresy. The wind blows where it pleases.

The point is rather that ROAC's activities in the USA parallel that of all too many cults. I feel some culpability for encouraging this, having essentially dared unattached young men to discard their old lives and migrate to Colorado. Whether it will be for the better or not, I cannot say. And perhaps the framework of Orthodoxy in the large, the Orthodoxy that transcends jurisdictions and times and places, will constrain the lives of those in Colorado so that in time they may become simply orthodox.

[Грешник]

What is truly sad is that you all squabble about jurisdictional battles and that you feel that is wrong fpr ROAC to have made any statement, on this or that, but then you say tat you or your church wont do that because it is "orthodox" THEN you turn right around and judge the ROAC on something you yourself say you or your church wouldnt do.

Just a bit hypocritical don't you think? No, probably not. If your church is so great than mybe you should focus your attention on that and not on the "sinful, heretical, juristictionalized, schismatic evil" churc of the ROAC.

No, CGW I dont think that you can take responibility for the movements of any mans soul to do what they think is right. No manner of prodding ion your part would have made this decision for someone, they would make this decision on their own.

You see it is this double talk that has made me rethink posting ANYTHING on this forum and for those who will run to the defense of this forum no this is not the only one out there and yes it does hapen in other places, i realize this. My issue is that the purpose pf this forum has utterly been abandoned as I see it and so until this is abbreviated or changed or the "mission statement" is ammended as such I think I will lurk and probably just fade away. There is hope yet but I think it will take a major effort on all parts.

This forum, that it might REST in PEACE. Not DEATH, but REST with PEACE.

[CGW]

What is truly sad is that you all squabble about jurisdictional battles and that you feel that is wrong fpr ROAC to have made any statement, on this or that, but then you say tat you or your church wont do that because it is "orthodox" THEN you turn right around and judge the ROAC on something you yourself say you or your church wouldnt do.

Since I have already disclaimed the battles you accuse us "all" of, isn't it then meet and right for me to point out what is strange about ROAC?

No, CGW I dont think that you can take responibility for the movements of any mans soul to do what they think is right. No manner of prodding ion your part would have made this decision for someone, they would make this decision on their own.

It is all well and good for you to take final responsibility for your own actions, and perhaps it is the case that my words had no influence on you. I cannot take that as absolution.

My issue is that the purpose pf this forum has utterly been abandoned as I see it and so until this is abbreviated or changed or the "mission statement" is ammended as such I think I will lurk and probably just fade away.

Ah, well, the purpose of the forum.

Back when you were in elementary school, I already knew ROCOR. I knew the Ekzarkhovs and Fetisoffs, just as I knew the Oleyniks and Trboviches of OCA and the Hodjeras and Holowkas of the Serbian church. If I remember correctly, my second Orthodox service was at St. John the Baptist in DC. And these churches were not the places of whose bishop and what anathema and what awful thing is the patriarch/metropolitan/abbot doing this week. Well, some of the converts obsessed about, which the rest of us really found tiresome, and there were some comments, and then there was the Serbian political talk which I tried to stay away from.

This is the real tradition. The jurisdiction-hopping, the chasing after the True Church: that is essentially American, and thus essentially Protestant. And so is the forming of a little sort of commune in the mountains. The real Orthodox from the East do not purposefully make themselve dowdy or hirsute; that is American, and Protestant, too.

Living where I do, I have a significant exposure to Amish and Mennonite groups. And what I see here is an Orthodox attempt at a conservative Mennonite church-- not utterly separate from the world, but deliberately marking itself apart, and deeply concerned with the legitmacy of other denominations. This is not the Orthodoxy of history, but an innovation. The real heirs of Russian Orthodoxy wear suits to church, and the women-- even the old women-- do not wear babushkas. They dress a bit better than Episcopalians, but not as well as black Baptists.

It's not that I don't think that there is no Orthodoxy in ROAC. It's that I have to suspect that you, Juvenaly, are a pawn in other people's malign clerical controversies. And I have to suspect that you are being fed false promises, promises of wisdom that few men in their early twenties have the maturity to actually possess.

[尼古拉前执事]

This is the real tradition. The jurisdiction-hopping, the chasing after the True Church: that is essentially American, and thus essentially Protestant.

That is funny coming from a Protestant. Especially a Protestant that frequents Orthodox Message Boards but has no inclination to leave Protestantism for Orthodoxy.

And so is the forming of a little sort of commune in the mountains. The real Orthodox from the East do not purposefully make themselve dowdy or hirsute; that is American, and Protestant, too.

Is anyone doing this? I do not know of anyone doing it other than the Antiochians in Eagle River, Alaska

This is not the Orthodoxy of history, but an innovation. The real heirs of Russian Orthodoxy wear suits to church, and the women-- even the old women-- do not wear babushkas. They dress a bit better than Episcopalians, but not as well as black Baptists.

You've never been to Russia, or to ROCOR's Cathedral in Jordanville, have you Charles?

And I have to suspect that you are being fed false promises, promises of wisdom that few men in their early twenties have the maturity to actually possess.

And this suspicion is based on your live encounters with which hierarchs of ROAC, exactly?

[Joseph D]

You bring up a good point Joseph; what food tastes good with Kool-aid? Maybe some hot dogs?

I'll be honest, Tom. You're scaring me.

[bogoliubtsy]

And can someone explain how it is a part of any Orthodox tradition?

It's part of the Laura Ingalls Wilder tradition...

But seriously...I have no problem with people dressing in that sort of way if it is honest. By honest, I mean there isn't a conscious attempt to recreate what they feel 19th century Russia was like, or to create some kind of "pious" image for themselves by dressing well below their means and outside of their culture. If it's not artificial, it's not a problem.