Marriage

[Maria]

Dear Father Enoch,

Christ is Risen!

Thank you for your response.

In most jurisdictions of True Orthodoxy, if a couple is baptized into Holy Orthodoxy, then their reception of Holy Communion confirms and blesses their marriage. Isn't this true? If however, the husband is going to be ordained to sub-deacon, diaconate, and priesthood, then the couple is Crowned in Holy Matrimony before his ordination.

If one spouse were to accept Holy Baptism into True Orthodoxy while the other spouse remained heterodox, but then later this heterodox spouse receives the grace to convert to Holy Orthodoxy and receives Holy Baptism, would the couple have a Crowning following the Baptism? Or would their communion together following the baptism of the second spouse sanctify their marriage?

[Lydia]

Read 1 Corinthians 7
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... rsion=AKJV

No one who repents and wishes to join Holy Orthodoxy can be prohibited from so, no matter the religion of their spouse who is against it. If their spouse disapproves then too bad for the spouse. Sure they can join Orthodoxy. Their marriage would be considered in the same sense that St. Paul mentions in 1 Corinthians 7. Sure such a convert than take the Mysteries.

Their marriage (that is, of one who is Orthodox and one who is not) is something that existed outside the Church and was not a Sacrament, and because both parties were not Orthodox, nor was anything done either by giving them the Marriage rite (Mystery), or even giving some sort of ecclesiastical decree from the Bishop on the matter, then it cannot be considered a Sacrament.

The union is not sinful, that is, in such cases of one party converting to Orthodoxy while the other is not, otherwise they would be involved in fornication or their children would be illegitimate.

However, if both parties convert to Orthodoxy the Sacrament of Matrimony should be given; at the very least their should be some sort of ecclesiastical decree or formal statement from the Bishop approving of it in the Holy Church.

In Christ,

Fr. Enoch

I'm glad to hear the Church will recieve a convert even if the spouse opposes this. As Maria pointed out, this could be dangerous for those who convert from Islam.
I know that mixed marriges were performed by ROCOR post WW 2, since Russian people comprised very small communities in many areas of Europe and North America.
In several cases I know, the spouse eventually was recieved into The Orthodox Church and became very pious.
Contrast that to when I was in HOCNA, who demanded that the Non-Orthodox person first be recieved into the Church. In the majority of cases (including the children of the priest) these marriages ended in divorce and the children not being raised in the Orthodox faith.

[Jean-Serge]

Mixed marriages were banned by the canons, even the early canons. Canon 72 (by memory) of in Trullo even says they should be dissolved. We should not forget that even in Constantinople, there was a great religious mixity with Jews, pagans, and all sorts of heretics. The question of mixed marriage is not a new question in the history. They authorized under Peter the Great in Russia and towards the beginning of 19th century in Greece, As far as I know, only the church of Georgia forbids them in world orthodoxy.

For True orthodoxy, in ROAC, they are forbidden, even with world orthodox people; from my discussion in Greece, in GOC-K, it appears that they are also forbidden with people from world orthodoxy, but if they happen "by economy", the true orthodox person could not comnmune very much, at most 4 times a year. I do not know how GOC-K in the US deals with the topic.

[jgress]

I've heard that what sometimes happens is people get married outside the Church they then incur a canonical penalty and have to abstain from Communion for a certain time.

What is your jurisdiction, Jean-Serge?

[Jean-Serge]

I've heard that what sometimes happens is people get married outside the Church they then incur a canonical penalty and have to abstain from Communion for a certain time.

What is your jurisdiction, Jean-Serge?

As stated in the GOC SiR discussion I am still in GOC-K. Yes, in theory, if you marry outside the Church (being orthodox), you are normally forbidden to commune until you marry religiously. It is even stated in the Constantinople archdiocese in America, so I guess it is quite universal; excepted the particular cases of those who could only have a civil wedding because there were no priests at all in the area or in the country (which might happen)...

[Suaidan]

First off, everyone, please consult your priest if you're confused about the Orthodox practice of marriage.

I know of no True Orthodox jurisdiction that approves of two converts with a heterodox marriage not even having a simple rite of crowning performed upon them. This idea of "mystical marriage" is a modern idea. Crowning was known among the Christians as early as Tertullian.

The idea of the Church simply communing two heterodox spouses was brought into relief by Schmemmann, who claimed "It is worth mentioning that the early Church apparently did not know of any separate marriage service." However, the earliest Western sacramentary, that of St Leo, had a "nuptial mass". Same in the Eastern and Gallican services. Separate marriage service has always been prescribed in the Church.

While Fr Enoch was clear and correct, about a Christian marrying a non-Christian, if both parties are Christians, you must be crowned. Period. You don't have to do the betrothal service. But you do need to do an approved ritual of marriage before the Church, no matter how short. Not doing so lets you pretend to recognize the marriage while the Church hasn't blessed it. It is a fantasy of convenience.

And it's wrong.

[Suaidan]

I've heard that what sometimes happens is people get married outside the Church they then incur a canonical penalty and have to abstain from Communion for a certain time.

What is your jurisdiction, Jean-Serge?

I'm not Jean-Serge, but he answered your question: the canonical penalty for marriage outside the Church is its dissolution. Orthodox Christians should be strongly dissuaded from marrying outside the Orthodox Church.