The RC church: it has come to this

[Daniel]

AMDG

Maybe I missed something . . .

I don't understand why the existence of a freak "Catholic" group is a reflection on Catholicism as such.

Sues57--BE FIRM in the Faith of your fathers.

Christ did indeed say that the gates of Hell would never prevail against His Church--against His Church founded on Peter.

Long live the Faith!

LatinTrad

The rock that the Church is built on is not Peter (petros-little stone), but on Jesus whom Peter confessed as the Christ, the Son of the Living God.

Daniel

[Joe Zollars]

I'm not saying I disagree with your post, however that argument does not hold water. It assumes that the Gospel of St. Mathew was originally written in Greek. as it was written to devout jews, a fraction fo which knew greek--the trading languageof the time, it would have rather been written in the Aramaic as this was the language which was known and understood by all devout jews. this can easily be coroborated by the fact that the Holy Apostle Petro was referred to more than once by the blessed Apostle Paul by the name Cephas or Kephas (that former in the Duay Rheims and is slightly latinized. The later can be found in many protestant versions including some editions of hte KJV) Kephas is what the original aramaic would have sounded like. Kephas just means rock. there is no disctinction between big and little, just rock.

Joe Zollars

[Justin Kissel]

Oy, not a Matt. 16:18-19 debate

[Joe Zollars]

for the benifet of Paradosis, I shall henceforth conduct my debate on the matter entirely in Medieval Latin and to further the confusion will switch readily back and forth without warning to Ecclesiastical Latin.

JK.

Joe Zollars

[LatinTrad]

LatinTrad: Do you attend Indult, SSPX, SSPV, CMRI, or an Independent chapel?

I am a Catholic; therefore I only attend Masses that are offered in Communion with Rome. (Indult, FSSP, etc.)

Regarding Mt. 16:18--Here is what was posted in a similar debate on another forum:

"Now, I have a question for everybody. If Christ was referring only to Himself as the rock, why did He decide to change Simon's name, and call him Kepha? WHY?

"Look through the scriptures, both Old and New--whenever God gives someone a new name, it signifies that that person is receiving a unique and important mission in salvation history. The nature of the person's new mission is reflected in their name--Abraham, Paul, etc. So why would Christ give Simon the name "rock", and state that "upon this rock" He would build His Church, if He only intended to say "I am the rock" or "All the Apostles are equally the rock" or "Faith is the rock"?

"Christ was quite the capable speaker and knew how to say what He wanted to say. If he wanted to say "the faith of all the Apostles is the rock upon which I will build 15 autocephalous Churches with no central authority" He could have done so. He did not, however. He said that Simon was the "rock" and that "epi tautén tén petrén" He would build His Church.

"Is Peter's "faith", in some sense, the rock upon which the Church is founded? Yes--insofar as Christ would not have named him "Rock" without his divinely-inspired confession of Faith. Thus, Peter's Faith may be called the "rock", by extension--because Peter could not have been named "Rock" without his Faith. Nevertheless, the arguments that deny that Peter is the rock are grammatically and logically torturous, as well as opposed to the plain words of Scripture."

LatinTrad :mrgreen:

[OrthodoxyOrDeath]

Who says Jesus ever said "Kephas"? Who says the original Aramaic text said "Kephas"?

There is no consensus at all that Jesus even spoke Aramaic, many scholars believe he spoke Greek or Hebrew. The only consensus is among the Latins who's strange ideas have ascended to nauseating heights in the West.

In addition, and most importantly, even though the book of Matthew was the only book originally written in Aramaic (as "they" say anyway), the original is lost. By Divine Providence, the only surviving text is in Greek.

Now unless somebody wants to forward the notion that there are errors in Holy Scripture, they would have to accept the difference in meaning between "Petros" and "Petras" as the Will of God. Clearly there is a difference, and clearly there are no mistakes in Holy Scripture.

Does LatinTrad believe there are mistakes in Holy Scripture? (Y/N)

[尼古拉前执事]

Paul publicly rebuked Peter (Galatians 2:11­14). This controversy in Antioch led directly to the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15:1­29).

As for the book of Matthew, let us turn to the Fathers...

Blessed Theophylact: "The Lord is saying, 'This confession which you have made shall be the foundation of those who believe.'" [P.G. 123:85B (col. 320).]

Saint Chrysostom: "'Upon this rock I will build'; that is, on the faith of the confession." [Hom. 54, P.G. 58:518 (col.534).]

Saint Leo: "Upon this firmness, He says, I shall raise my Temple, and it will rise upon the steadfastness of this faith, and the loftiness of My Church will mingle with the heavens. The gates of Hades shall not master this profession; nor the bonds of death bind it. For these words are the words of life, and as they raise those who confess them up to heaven, so they plunge those that deny them down to hell." [Sermon 83(2), P.L. 54 (col. 429), in FC, 93:357; Toal, III:267, 268.]

"This one (Peter) is called a rock in order that on his FAITH (Rock) he may receive the foundations of the Church."  - St. Gregory Nazianzen, 26th Discourse

"The Rock on which Christ will build His Church means the faith of confession." - St. John Chrysostom, 53rd Homily on St. Matthew

"The Rock (petra) is the blessed and only rock of the faith confessed by the mouth of Peter. It is on this Rock of the confession of faith that the Church is built." - St. Hilary of Poitiers, 2nd book on the Trinity

Hilary wrote the first lengthy study of the doctrine of the Church in Latin. Proclaimed a "Doctor of the Church" by the Roman See in 1851, he is called the Athanasius of the Western Church. 
     
'"The word "Rock" has only a denominative value-it signifies nothing but the steadfast and firm faith of the apostles."

• Cyril of Alexandria, Upon St.John, Book JJ, Chap. XII

In his Letter to Nestorius, St. Cyril says: "Peter and John were equal in dignity and honor. Christ is the foundation of all -the unshakeable Rock upon which we are all built as a spiritual edifice."

"Faith is the foundation of the Church, for it was not of the person but the faith of St. Peter of which it was said, 'the gates of hell shall not prevail'; certainly it is the confession of faith which has vanquished the powers of hell."

"Jesus Christ is the Rock. He did not deny the grace of His name... to Peter because he borrowed from the Rock the constancy and solidity of his faith- thy Rock is thy faith, and faith is the foundation of the Church. If thou art a Rock, thou shalt be in the Church, for the Church is built upon the Rock... (the profession of faith in Christ Jesus)." - St. Ambrose: The Incarnation