GOA now tonsuring women as clergy?

[Myrrh]

I'm sure if I concentrated really, really hard, I'd be able to follow the calendar arguments..., so, I'd like a really, really, simple explanation of why we can't use the 18.6 cycle - anyone?

Myrrh

[Myrrh]

Perhaps that's too broad a sweep and I think I've got confused between the 18.6 cycle of eclipses and the 19 year cycle of sun and moon - I meant the latter. I ask because I was reminded of it a couple of days ago in a programme about Stonehenge which posited the theory that this was built in the changeover from hunter gatherer societies to more settled farming, from the first where the moon was important to the one in which the sun became so as necessary to growing crops.

From a particular vantage point, the heel stone, on the avenue leading to Stonehenge the stones look more or less a solid mass with two windows, one above the other. Every month the moon shines through the higher window and every year the setting sun at the winter solstice shines through the lower.

This method of marking time is first seen in the West in Newgrange, Ireland around five thousand years ago:

http://www.mythicalireland.com/

http://www.mythicalireland.com/astronom ... ndars.html

The programme also showed one of the three 'wizard's hats' that have been found in Europe which show the full cycle of sun and moon in this 19 year cycle.

http://farshores.org/amcone.htm

So, my question is, how could this cycle be used as a base for the liturgical cycle of the Orthodox if such was possible? Would it have the drawbacks of the Julian/Gregorian type cycles which need tweaking?

And anything else you might think of, since not understanding the problem fully, the difference between the Gregorian and Julian, I'm not sure of the questions that could be asked.

Myrrh

[George Australia]

And anything else you might think of, since not understanding the problem fully, the difference between the Gregorian and Julian, I'm not sure of the questions that could be asked.

The main problem which all Solar based Calendars face is that the algorithms used to Calculate them do not correspond exactly to the events they measure. The calendar year is supposed to measure the "Siderial Year" which is the time it takes for Earth to complete one revolution of it's orbit around the Sun. On average, the Siderial Year is : 365.256 363 051 days ( or 365 days 6 hours 9 minutes and 9 seconds) long. The Julian Calendar approximates this as 365.25 days (or 365 days and 6 hours), which was a good approximation, however, since the extra six hours are a quarter of a day, this meant that every 4 years, a Leap Day was added to the Calendar (Which is now February 29th). However, because the year is a bit longer than 365.25 days, having a leap year every 4 years is innacurate.
To Christians, the most important Calendar date to calculate was Pascha, and it was decreed at the First Ecumenical Council that the date of Pascha would be calculated as a combination of a Lunar Event and a Solar Event. The Lunar Event is a Full Moon and the Solar Event is the Spring Equinox.
As you know, in the Northern Hemisphere, the Sun rises more and more to the South in the Winter until it reaches it's Southern most rising point (known as the "Winter Solstice"), then, the rising point of the Sun beings moving North again as you move through the Seasons into Summer, until it reaches it's Northernmost rising point (the Summer Solstice), after which it begings moving South again. The midpoint between the position of the rising Sun at the two Solstices is the Equinox (lit "equal night"). On the day of the Equinox, the Sun will rise exactly due East when viewed from the Equator, and will be exatly at zenith (the point directly above you, perpendicular to the ground) on the Equator at midday and therefore, no shadows of vertical objects are cast). The name "Equinox" derives from the fact that the day and the night have the same number of hours at the Equator on that day. There are two Equinoxes, one in the Fall (Autumn), and one in Spring.
The Spring Equinox, at the time of the First Ecumenical Council, took place on March 21st each year, and it was decreed that Pascha would be the first Sunday following the first full moon after the Spring Equinox (provided this fell before the Jewish Pascha, otherwise it would be the following Sunday). However, as the centuries passed a problem was noted. The Spring Equinox was occuring earlier and earlier than March 21st. When astronomers actually timed how long it took between one Equinox and the next (ie, the length of the Siderial Year), they found that in fact the Siderial Year was not exactly 365.25 days long as the Julian Calendar assumed, but in fact was 9 minutes and 9 seconds longer, and as the centuries passed these extra minutes and seconds were accruing, so that Julian Calendar was assuming the Earth was further along in it's orbit around the Sun than it actually was. The Leap days added to the Julian Calendar every 4 years were, in fact, too many, and were over-compensating. To correct this, when the Gregorian Calendar was introduced in 1582, it removed the extra days from the calendar which had accrued, so that the Northern Spring Equinox again occured on March 21st. And to prevent extra days from accruing again, it was decreed that the century years (ie 1600, 1700, 1800, 1900 etc) would not be Leap Years unless they were divisible by 400. Thus AD 1600 was a Leap Year on the Gregorian Calendar, but AD 1700 was not a Leap Year. However, the Julian Calendar still counts every century year as a Leap Year, thus the two Calendars are drifting further and further apart by 3 days every 400 years. Thus, while the Gregorian and Julian Calendars differed by 10 days in 1582, they now differ by 13 days. And while the Spring Equinox actually occurs on or near March 21st on the Gregorian Calendar, it is occuring earlier and earlier on the Julian Calendar, Currently, the actual Spring Equinox occurs on March 8th on the Julian. However, March 21st on the Julian Calendar is still used to calculate the Date of Pascha, thus, even though the Spring Equinox no longer occurs on that date, but 13 days earlier, Pascha is the3 first Sunday after the First Full Moon after March 21st. So, in fact, there is now the possibility that the Full moon used to calculate Pascha may not in fact be the First Full moon after the Spring Equinox, but the second. On the Julian Calendar, the Spring Equinox actually takes place on March 8th. If the next full moon is, say March 19th, the Julian Calendarists will not count this as the first full moon after the Spring Equinox, because they still count March 21st as the Equinox. And just to prove to you that the New Calendarists are Julian Calendarists (and not Gregorian Calendarists), they too use the Julian date of March 21st (April 3rd on the New Calendar) as the date of the Spring Equinox, even though it has occured nearly two weeks earlier.
So, we have a problem, in that if we insist on holding on to the Julian Calendar, we will drift further and further away (moreso than we already are) from the actual Spring Equinox. As it stands, we no longer use the Spring Equinox to calculate Pascha, but rather a fixed date on an innacurate calendar.
The great irony of all this, of course, that because we insist on calculating Pascha as we do in order to "keep tradition", the reality is that not one of the Orthodox Churches now dates Pascha in accordance with what the Fathers decreed! The New Calendar was originally intended to bring us back to celebrating Pascha the way the Fathers said we should- ie, on the first Sunday after the first Full moon after the Vernal Equinox. The original idea of the New Calendar was to correct the Leap Year error in the Julian Calendar and determine the Spring Equinox according to actual observations from Jerusalem- that is, the Spring Equinox would be the day that the Sun crossed the midpoint between the Solstices as viewed from the Church of the Resurrection in Jerusalem (which would always occur on March 21st or the day before, or the day after.) and this would correspond to the date on the Civil Calendar. But because not all Churches agreed, in order that both new and old Calendarists celebrate Pascha together, the Julian date of March 21st has to be used as an artificial "Equinox" even though the actual Equinox takes place nearly a fortnight earlier. By clinging to man made customs of calling March 21st "The Spring Equinox", we are actually out of step with the Holy Canons and Holy Tradition, since we no longer observe Pascha on the date which the Fathers decreed.
If we use the actual Spring Equinox, rather than the artificial date, then Pascha would automatically fall after the Jewish Passover, because the Jewish Passover occurs on 14th Nissan on the Jewish Calendar, which is a Lunisolar Calendar (ie, it takes into account both the Sun and the Moon). The months on the Jewish Calendar begin with the New Moon and reach the Full Moon on the 14th of the month. Nissan is the first Month of the Jewish Calendar, that is, the first month of the Northern Spring, so 14th Nissan is "The first full moon after the Spring Equinox", and our Pascha is the first Sunday after this, so, despite what some say, we would never celebrate Pascha on or before the 14th of Nissan (Passover) if we used the actual Spring Equinox to determine it. In fact, this was the very reason the Fathers decreed that we should celebrate Pascha on "the first Sunday after the First full moon following the Spring Equinox".....If only we would actually do this! As it stands, there are now many years when we celebrate Pascha after the SECOND Full Moon following the actual Spring Equinox, and as time goes by, we will be celebrating it after the third full moon and so on.

[Myrrh]

Thank you very much George, I think the the fog is lifting..

I'm struggling with the following, what is this saying in relation to the Jewish calendar?

The Spring Equinox, at the time of the First Ecumenical Council, took place on March 21st each year, and it was decreed that Pascha would be the first Sunday following the first full moon after the Spring Equinox (provided this fell before the Jewish Pascha, otherwise it would be the following Sunday).

Myrrh

[joasia]

I'm going to offer my simplicitic view of the calendar. The Julian calendar was upheld since Julius Ceasar. The Apostles and holy fathers followed it; they lived and died by it until the 19th century when a certain pope of Rome, in sorry memory, decided to push it ahead 10 days. This was part of the plan to make a further schism between the romans and Orthodox. The the patriarch of istambul decides to follow along in order to get closer to the western rite and farther away from the traditions of the holy fathers. So be it. If the pope of Rome hadn't changed it, then we would be in a different circumstance. I don't care about the explanations of celestial deviations. I care about what our holy fathers, who were saints believed. Ecumenists of today will explain that it was wrong by astronomical standards. Is it really? Should I put all my faith in astronomics? I don't care what scientists say. I care what the holy fathers say.

Is it about worldly and secular opinions or about the spiritual life of Christ's Church? Let the ecumenists follow their own path...I prefer to follow the tradition upheld by the holy fathers in Christ's Church.

I have yet to see quotes, by the holy fathers of the Orthodox Church, offered about the ecumenist stance on any issue...including changing the calendar.

Joanna

[George Australia]

Thank you very much George, I think the the fog is lifting..

I'm struggling with the following, what is this saying in relation to the Jewish calendar?

The Spring Equinox, at the time of the First Ecumenical Council, took place on March 21st each year, and it was decreed that Pascha would be the first Sunday following the first full moon after the Spring Equinox (provided this fell before the Jewish Pascha, otherwise it would be the following Sunday).

It means that if, when we calculate the date of Pascha we find that the Jewish Passover (14th of Nissan) falls on the same day as Pascha, then Pascha must be celebrated the following Sunday. The Calculation of Pascha which the Fathers decreed ensured that the Jewish Passover never comes after Pascha, but it can mean that they fall on the same day, in which case, Pascha has to be observed the following Sunday.

[George Australia]

... I care what the holy fathers say. ...I prefer to follow the tradition upheld by the holy fathers in Christ's Church.

Then why don't you observe Pascha as the Fathers decreed in the First Ecumenical Council, that is, on the first Sunday following the first Vernal Full Moon? Why do you sometimes observe it after the Second Vernal Full moon (as we did in 2002 and 2005, and will do again in 2008)? Every few years, we (both New and Old Calendarists) disobey the decree of the First Ecumenical Council by observing Pascha as we do, and yet, the West which uses the Gregorian Calendar last broke the decree in 1825 (when the Western Easter coincided with the Jewish Passover). In other words, you would be celebrating Pascha more often in accordance with the Fathers if you followed the Gregorian Calendar. Of course, you wouldn't have to adopt the Gregorian Calendar if you guys agreed to revise the Julian Calendar in the original way we wanted to, that is, to correct the Leap Year error and observe Pascha according to the actual Vernal Equinox, but I suppose you need to understand the problem with the current use of the old Julian Calendar and why it is uncanonical, and causes you to observe Pascha on a day contrary to the decree of the Fathers of the First Ecumenical Council. And you seem unwilling to do that, which I find strange, when you say that you consider yourself to be a "traditionalist". Why would a "traditionalist" not observe Pascha as the Fathers decreed it should be observed?

I don't care about the explanations of celestial deviations. .... Should I put all my faith in astronomics? ..... I don't care what scientists say.

Firstly, If we don't listen to scientists and astronomers, and if we don't make celestial observations, then how do we know when to celebrate the Holy Hours of the Church? When should Vespers being? When should Matins begin? How do we know when Midnight is in order to close the Triodion and open the Pentecostarion to end the Fast and celebrate the Pascha?
And Secondly, you need to know when the Vernal (Spring) Equinox is in order to celebrate Pascha and all the moveable Feasts in accordance with what the Fathers decreed at the First Ecumenical Council.