On Headcoverings and Modesty of Women in Church

The practice of living the life in Christ: fasting, vigil lamps, head-coverings, family life, icon corners, and other forms of Orthopraxy. All Forum Rules apply.


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Justin Kissel

Post by Justin Kissel »

I guess I overreact a lot because... well, because sexuality and lust is one of my own personal struggles. It aggravates me to no end that if I merely point out what the church teaches, I'm labeled a puritan or as someone who wants to "keep women in clothes like on little house on the prarie" (as Serge likes to say about me). I never said that sex was dirty; though if I did I wouldn't be unorthodox, that is a perfectly acceptable Orthodox answer. I never said we should avert our eyes from beautiful things; though if I did that wouldn't be unorthodox, that also is a perfectly acceptable Orthodox answer.

The funny thing is, these discussions today revolve usually around two types of people. One type knows what the fathers teach, and struggles hard to follow them, though for the most part fails. The second type doesn't have a clue what the fathers teach, and just assumes that it can't be all that different than what he or his priest thinks. When the first type (like me) tries to explain to the second type the Orthodox position, both end up overreacting. The second type thinks all of a sudden that the person is saying we can't notice beauty, that "attraction" is a sin, and so forth. By the second type overreacting, this leads the first type to overreact as well and go into a defensive mode, beacuse not only is he not saying what the second type said he was saying, but even if he was this would still place him perfectly within the acceptable arena or Orthodox beliefs!

The fathers do not say we cannot look at beauty, they just cautious against it. To look on beauty is to lose focus on God. The fathers followed faithfully those passages when spoke of "meditating on God day and night" and "pray without ceasing". All the things of this world are possible distractions to that, which would lead us away from God; those things we subjectively see as "beautiful" can do it even more so. This is not to say that something beautiful cannot be beneficial or draw us closer to God by thinking about his glory, but it's dangerous and we must guard our hearts.

Concerning the opposite sex, again, I don't say it's wrong to notice that someone is pretty. We can, for instance, notice that a baby or child is pretty or handsome with no sinful or sexual aspects to that thought; we can do the same thing with adults. However, in our lust-crazed society, this is very difficult. Certainly we should not go out looking for beautiful people, or line them up for everyone to stare at. Saint Tikhon of Zadonsk said that we should stay at home unless we needed to go out, because whatever good we would have at home would be lost be going out among people. Most of the saints follow along this line of thinking. It's not that beauty is bad, it's just that worldly distractions are dangerous for us spiritually. No doubt if I had said we should stay at home (rather than St. Tikhon) I would be labeled a puritan or something similar.

To think about someone in a way other than as a sister in Christ is a sin. It's lust, and according to Jesus, he who lusts has commited adultery. Lust does not just mean thinking about someone graphically, though. A good way to judge whether our thoughts are unChristian is to take our thoughts that we are thinking about someone else, and then imagine that someone else was doing the same thing to our wives, daughters, husbands, boyfriends, etc. Would we be ok with that? Suddenly that "innocent little look" seems not so innocent, when you decide that you wouldn't want others giving that look to your wife. Suddenly thinking "what a nice chest" or "what a nice butt" becomes not so innocent, when you decide that you wouldn't want some guy thinking that of your daughter. Think about others as you would have them think about you and yours.

I'm also a bit confused about the whole "well you can't go by what monastics say" type of thinking (and I'm not saying anyone here said that, but it usually does get brought up at some point). According to Orthodox epistemology, the more one gets cleansed by God, the more they understand--human things as well as divine things. It doesn't matter that someone is a monk. Most of the saints were monastics, but then most of the saints understood society and marriage better than people who were actually participating in society in marriage. Knowledge does normally come from experience, but God grants knowledge to saints that lets them look into people's souls, know what they are truly thinking, know when they are approaching, able to heal diseases, they understand the mysteries of the universe and human psychology infinitely better than we... and yet sex mystifies them? beauty confuses them? This is not Orthodox thought, this is a belief whose seed was planted by the reformers (especially Luther) and has not permeated western society in a quasi-anti-monastic sentiment. They are confined to their monasteries: they do their thing, we'll do ours; they can't possible understand us, nor we them (so the idea goes). But it's wrong.

The Bible said that Jesus was tempted in all things like us. Did that mean he experienced all things? Did he experience child birth? Did he have other feminine issues? Was he tempted to sleep with Mary Magdalene? No, he wasn't tempted to do any of these. And yet the Bible says he knows our temptations in all things. How, did he experience every single last one of them? No, but God grants knowledge to those who seek and ask. One needn't experience drug use to know it's dangers or temptations: even in a wordly way we can understand things without experiencing them. How much more so is this true when it is God who gives us the knowledge! What, will we say that God's grace is unable to make up for the learning experience of action doing something? No, even monastics who have never stepped outside of a monastery (ie. been there from birth) can--if they seek out the knowledge and struggle and work hard for it--attain to a much higher knowledge than those who actually live in the world and do things that non-monastics do.

This isn't to say, of course, that we should follow along monastic literature and apply everything they say. There's a good reason that many priests caution against reading the Philokalia and such books: because we usually don't have the spiritual discernment to know when and why to apply teachings, and when to avoid them. Monastics normally took a maximalistic, seemingly dualistic approach to most worldly things. They "despised the world" (understood aright). Certainly we should not follow them in all this. Yet, the psychology in their sayings, the basic spirit, is applicable for all, even if the actual command or action isn't. Amazingly, even heterodox authors like C.S. Lewis seem to be able to notice this; his Screwtape Letters for instance is filled with the brim with sound psychological knowledge, most of which could find direct support among "the monastics" of ages past. The problem isn't the teachings, the problem is the application, and knowing how much is too much in each of our individual lives.

But at the very least, we are all called to modesty. We are all called to non-judgment. We are all called to go "further up and further in," which takes more dedication than a couple hours on Sunday morning, but is a full time discipline. It means you can't do things you might like to do. Sorry, that's how it is. We need to prioritize our lives and see what is most important to us, and what is of benefit to us spiritually. Somehow I fail to see how going to the beach to purposely look at guys (though there would be other reasons to go I'm sure) or watching a "swimsuit competition" as part of a 'beauty pageant" is beneficial to us. It seems to me that, even if you aren't effected yourself (which I think formost people is impossible, it certainly would be for me if I saw an attractive girl in a bikini) you are still feeding into their pride and vanity. You are making it possible for them to continue on as they are--which may be on a very wide road, and not a narrow one. If this line of thinking offends you, then maybe it's because it came from a monk, for this is roughly what Saint John Chrysostom said of the distractions of his own age. Only, Saint John was much harsher in his judgement, whereas I'm trying to be restrained.

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Post by Logos »

LIUDMILLA wrote:

Part of the problem that exists with the looking lies within the way that we look at and interpret the writings of the elders of the church. Most of, if not all, the writers were monastics who were addressing problems encountered in their pursuit of the "passionless" life. The thing we forget is that not all of mankind was made to pursue the "passionless" life. Some of us were made for "love". For us love is the central aspect of our being... love for others, love for children, love for spouse, etc. For us, I believe, is given the fight against anger, hatred, prejudice and evil. Emotions such as love, compassion, amd pity become our weapons to fight evil.

We go through life in such a hurry, striving to live, to be that we often forget to stop and comtemplate the beauty of the world created, and that includes the people within it. One can look at something, or someone and admire their beauty without all the negative emotions.

Good points.

My soul is lonely dark and afraid.

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Post by Liudmilla »

Justin wrote:
One type knows what the fathers teach, and struggles hard to follow them, though for the most part fails. The second type doesn't have a clue what the fathers teach, and just assumes that it can't be all that different than what he or his priest thinks. When the first type (like me) tries to explain to the second type the Orthodox position, both end up overreacting. The second type thinks all of a sudden that the person is saying we can't notice beauty, that "attraction" is a sin, and so forth. By the second type overreacting, this leads the first type to overreact as well and go into a defensive mode, because not only is he not saying what the second type said he was saying, but even if he was this would still place him perfectly within the acceptable arena or Orthodox beliefs!

First, I have to say that you are being somewhat contradictory, when you state, “The second type doesn't have a clue what the fathers teach, and just assumes that it can't be all that different than what he or his priest thinks.” Either one listens to his priest or one doesn’t, our priests have an understanding of what they preach or they don’t, you can’t have it both ways. In other posts you seem to indicate that one should listen to the teachings of one’s priest, yet here you seem to be saying that the priests don’t always have a clue. Very confusing!

Yes, I am of the “second type”, I don’t always sit and read all the writings of the fathers, but then I’m not totally ignorant either. I can’t quote readings or scripture or canons by rote. But that does not make me ignorant either. Yes, sometimes my views are colored by life and what I have experienced, but that does not make me wrong either.

I am considerably older than you and I have a different approach to many things. When I was young I used to travel to the Holy Trinity Monastery quite often with a friend of mine. In those times there were many strong spiritual fathers there. One, whom I held in high esteem, told me that there is a danger in immersing yourself in too much of the spiritual things. He did not say that we shouldn’t study, what he said that without proper guidance, improper interpretation of what was read could cause a person to fall into great despair. (A sin he said.) He was right of course. Life has taught me that. I contemplated the monastic life a number of times in my life before I finally married. My spiritual fathers at the monastery helped me understand that not all are called to the monastic life.

The other thing I learned from these men is that there is a certain danger to being a fundamentalist. You concentrate so much on the laws that you forget about the spirit of the laws. You begin to sound just like the Pharisees when you do that. Is it any wonder that Christ spoke out so much against Pharisees? I don’t think God will punish the person who honestly struggled with himself but ultimately did not reach the “blessed state” of the saints. The kind, compassionate, loving, humble person can sometimes have more grace than the person who looks down on them because they haven’t kept the fast rigidly, or because they don’t cross themselves properly or the myriad of other judgments that such fundamentalism can cause.

I understand that the saints gained great knowledge, understanding and abilities. It is not them that I question. I also know that many of these saints had lived in the world, had been married too for that matter. It is not them that I question (most of the time). What I do question is the interpretation that mankind makes of their writings and their teachings and the application they insist on.

We are a people with a sinful nature, we sin because we allow evil into our lives. It is ours to struggle against that evil and the sin it creates within us. As best as we can, with what we have.

Justin Kissel

Post by Justin Kissel »

I'm sorry that I confused you :(

EDIT-- PS. I don't mean that in an arrogant, "I'm too smart for you" type of way. I mean just that I have a hard time putting into words what I believe so that it gets across correctly. Sorry.

Last edited by Justin Kissel on Mon 25 August 2003 10:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Seraphim Reeves
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Post by Seraphim Reeves »

Webster's dictionary defines prejudice as follows:

Etymology: Middle English, from Old French, from Latin praejudicium previous judgment, damage, from prae- + judicium judgment -- more at JUDICIAL
Date: 13th century
1 : injury or damage resulting from some judgment or action of another in disregard of one's rights; especially : detriment to one's legal rights or claims
2 a (1) : preconceived judgment or opinion (2) : an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge b : an instance of such judgment or opinion c : an irrational attitude of hostility directed against an individual, a group, a race, or their supposed characteristics
synonym see PREDILECTION

If we as Orthodox people are to avoid judgement, how can prejudice be a "good" thing?

I was examining the term as it is commonly used, not it's precise (and of course correct) dictionary meaning. For example, many consider any sort of pre-experiential aversion to any type of activity or lifestyle to be a "prejudice." I was pointing out that some of those "prejudices" are in fact good, and should be held onto, as they'll save a soul a lot of grief.

Given the way you were using the term "prejudice", I felt my comment was justified (since, as it is, I dispute that many of the things you criticized in your post are in fact the product of irrational hostility, or simple ignorance.) If you meant some sort of "prejudice" that is in fact irrational or without any merit as far as the Orthodox Tradition is concerned, then I totally misunderstood your meaning.

Seraphim

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I dispute this

Post by Seraphim Reeves »

Part of the problem that exists with the looking lies within the way that we look at and interpret the writings of the elders of the church. Most of, if not all, the writers were monastics who were addressing problems encountered in their pursuit of the "passionless" life.

I dispute this. One thing which differentiates Orthodoxy from papism, is it's rejection of the idea that the monastic and lay vocations are fundamentally different. Monasticism is simply the "no holds barred", unencumbered pursuit of Christ - as St.Paul taught, it is better to not have a wife, and the Saviour Himself said this was the best thing if we could "endure" it (which apparently is a better translation of the passage in St.Matthew, which is typically translated as saying that celibacy is for those who can "receive" it.) All are called to spiritual poverty - the monastic simply helps this quest which we are all called to by literally having no posessions at all. Was it not the Saviour Himself who said that wealth was an obstical? He did not say it was an obstical to "some". Thus, fundamentally, the monastic vocation is the same as that of the "layman."

The thing we forget is that not all of mankind was made to pursue the "passionless" life.

Is not the Saviour's "passion" not referred to as the "passionless passion"? If we are all called to be "Christ-like", and to carry our own crosses, then I would think it's fair to say that we're all called to become "dispassionate" (understanding what is meant by that, obviously.)

Some of us were made for "love".

I'm not trying to pick at you friend, but I think it's very unfair to say that monastics are not "made for love" - it is precisely because they work so hard to become selfless, that they have the possibility of truly loving both God and mankind. Self interest (which is rooted in the passions aka. "the world" according to St.Isaac the Syrian) is an obstical to true love (the way that God loves, as do His Saints.)

For us love is the central aspect of our being... love for others, love for children, love for spouse, etc. For us, I believe, is given the fight against anger, hatred, prejudice and evil. Emotions such as love, compassion, amd pity become our weapons to fight evil.

And this is different for monastics? I know it's unpallitable to many modern ears, but it's quite well known that in the case of many married Saints (a modern example being St.John of Kronstadt) that eventually their marriages (particularly when they're done having children, or beyond the child bearing years) became physically chaste by mutual agreement. Is this a sign of a lack of love between those spouses, or perhaps of an even greater love?

Seraphim

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Post by ania »

Paradosis wrote:

The funny thing is, these discussions today revolve usually around two types of people. One type knows what the fathers teach, and struggles hard to follow them, though for the most part fails. The second type doesn't have a clue what the fathers teach, and just assumes that it can't be all that different than what he or his priest thinks. When the first type (like me) tries to explain to the second type the Orthodox position, both end up overreacting. The second type thinks all of a sudden that the person is saying we can't notice beauty, that "attraction" is a sin, and so forth.

I don't appreciate having it implied that I, and others who agree mostly with what I say, are ignorant to what the church fathers teach. Just because I don't sprinkle their quotes all over my posts, doesn't mean I don't read them. If anything, I would never quote them because, for all I know, I'm not interpreting what they wanted to say correctly. What if I find a quote that completely supports me, and I use that, but then, the sentence right after the quote puts it into a completely different context. I would hate to misguide someone, anyone by quoting the fathers.
And about the crack against our priests... most are much more well-versed in scripture, church fathers, and how to interpret them & incorporate them into daily life than any of us laypersons here, so how can listening to priests be a bad thing?
As you probably list me as foremost in the 2nd category, I would like to just say this, besides being pretty well-read in church writings, I come from a family of 6 generations of well educated priests (hopefully my brother will follow & make it 7), and most of my life, in one way or another focused in and around Holy Trinity Monastery, be it going to confession to wise old archimandrites, church school when I was very little, and as I grew older being friends with the seminarians, and even some of the monks.
As far as monks shrinking away from enjoying beauty, what a crock. Not to say they look at women, but I've yet to met a monk who hasn’t enjoyed a sunset, or sunrise, as they get up very early, apple blossoms in spring, fresh snow, etc, etc.
In beauty, one should appreciate the grandeur of God's creativity, for though man can create beauty by imitating God's work, he can never match it with what He made, and makes every day, in 1000s of different ways.
God also made it his will to make people beautiful. That was His decision, not ours. He also decided to give us an appreciation for beauty. The corruption of that is of course lust, jealousy (after all, you can lust after other things than people), etc, which is strictly the work of Satan. So it is up to us mortals to figure out how to walk the thin line of not being blind the splendor of God's creation, and using that creation only for personal satisfaction, and forgetting who created it. Some feel that they must shrink from all possibility of temptation, and seclude themselves from others. Others, either through stronger will, or fear of loneliness, or on a preordained mission (such as married clergy), struggle on through secular society. We look to church fathers for guidance, but, God also gave us free will, & the reason to use it. There were many church fathers with many views on how to attain salvation, because there are many paths to God, not in the ecumenical way (WCC and all that), I mean even in Orthodoxy. Not all needs to be strictly monastic.
Anyway, much rambling, but as it's the title of this thread, I hope people aren't to annoyed with me for going on like this. Now back to work.
Ania

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