On the question of the calendar

Patristic theology, and traditional teachings of Orthodoxy from the Church fathers of apostolic times to the present. All forum Rules apply. No polemics. No heated discussions. No name-calling.


Post Reply
User avatar
Seraphim Reeves
Member
Posts: 493
Joined: Sun 27 October 2002 2:10 pm
Location: Canada

Post by Seraphim Reeves »

OOD,

The 1920 Encyclical stated clearly: “In our opinion, such a friendship and kindly disposition towards each other [that is, between the Church and the various denominations] can be shown and demonstrated in the following ways: 1) through the adoption of one single calendar for the common celebration of the great Christian feasts by all the Churches.” This proposition, therefore, was accepted in 1920. Only the implementation was delayed four years, and that is what awakened the Orthodox. The Orthodox became aware of the heresy of Ecumenism little by little as it advanced and became more apparent. And the responsibility of the new-calendarists increased right along with this growing awareness until the mutual lifting of the anathemas in December of 1965 left them with no excuse. Since then it has been outright diabolical.

I do not disagree with you in the least about the genuinely heretical ecumenism, which even the most missionary oriented "good ecumenist" Orthodox scholar cannot avoid when he involves himself in these official congresses, or at least not avoid breaking Holy Canons with which often have a heavily implied/stated doctrinal content to them.

The problem I have, is with what I call the "just enough slack for me and/or those who I now follow" brand of ecumenist-resistance.

Strictly speaking, given that the GOC (Kiousis) holds to an interpretation of events indistinguishable from that always held to by the Matthewites, wouldn't that make your Church an unreconciled schism? Wouldn't that have made any of the Priests ordained by Archbishop Chrysostom (at the very least, before he repented) really laymen, needing to be re-ordained? And how could the GOC of Greece enter into communion with a Church (ROCOR) which for decades after the anathematization (1935) of the State Church of Greece, had recognized said State Church and concelebrated with it?

But oh...well, by 1965 (when ROCOR finally cut ties with the EP and the new calendarists) ROCOR got around to doing the right thing. Did that retroactively fix any of their ordination or episcopal consecrations? Or does the manifestation of Heaven's will on earth by the three Bishops in 1935 not require ROCOR's interest, consideration or consent?

But so much it seems, can be forgiven...when it's "my" guys.

Right or wrong, it took a decade for the three Bishops to leave the new calendarist Greek Church. And, right or wrong, it took ROCOR a heck of a lot longer than this to see what had only been announced in 1924 in the Patriarchal Encyclical of the EP.

Given this, why not entertain the same lenient optimism about those who may perhaps be even slower? Why conclude that they cannot baptize or have a priesthood (which let us not be shy here - that means your Church would have every right if it so felt it should, to "re"baptize each and every last one of them it receives), if you're not prepared to say the same of ROCOR? Or yourselves?

Oh wait...I just forgot - your Church received it's episcopate from the ROCOR, and precisely because Metropolitan Chrysostmos of Florina would not create further Bishops, on the grounds he did not view the GOC of Greece as a replacement of the Greek State Church.

Like I said, convienient leniency - for me, and no one else.

You put out, semi-rhetorically on the other thread where we are discussing this - that people who do not denounce the new-calendarists or those with them as being "graceless" have some kind of hidden motive, perhaps not even conscious to them. Actually, aside from reason, I do have a motive, and it is actually very very simple.

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. (St.Matthew 7:1-2)

Seraphim

Gregory
Jr Member
Posts: 54
Joined: Thu 19 December 2002 4:23 pm

Post by Gregory »

Given this, why not entertain the same lenient optimism about those who may perhaps be even slower? Why conclude that they cannot baptize or have a priesthood (which let us not be shy here - that means your Church would have every right if it so felt it should, to "re"baptize each and every last one of them it receives), if you're not prepared to say the same of ROCOR? Or yourselves?

Oh wait...I just forgot - your Church received it's episcopate from the ROCOR, and precisely because Metropolitan Chrysostmos of Florina would not create further Bishops, on the grounds he did not view the GOC of Greece as a replacement of the Greek State Church.

Boy, I thought I was confused before... :?

I suppose that this is a fair question. But, are you not a member of ROAC? It sounds as if you became a Cyprianite overnight.

Gregory

OrthodoxyOrDeath

Post by OrthodoxyOrDeath »

The problem I have, is with what I call the "just enough slack for me and/or those who I now follow" brand of ecumenist-resistance.

Like I said, convienient leniency - for me, and no one else.

Seraphim,

“convenient leniency” will always have a subjective interpretation outside the bounds of absolute and clear-cut strictness, which of course does not exist, even with the “Mathewites”. It is for this reason I have no aspirations of convincing you to amend your interpretations. You have yours (whatever that is nowadays), and I have accepted the ones I believe in.

But for the sake of some people who I know are on this forum and who are in a state of searching for the truth with an open heart and trying to satisfy the judgment of their conscience, I must address you.

Was Nestorius within the Church during the whole time he preached heresy before he was anathematized by the Council of Alexandria, Rome, or the Third Ecumenical Council? No. The Saints and Fathers tell us so. Yet for a period of time, other Orthodox churches abroad, out of ignorance, were in communion with HIM and not the true Orthodox.

So to say any bishop or priest who may not have come immediately to recognize Nestorius was a heretic, or came to this recognition differently over the course of only a few years is condemned because of this is also a rationalist position to take.

Furthermore, to say those who recognized the truth about Nestorius, whether immediatley or not had no right to declare what all of the Holy Fathers have declared is also absurd.

"So much it seems can be forgiven" when it is in allegiance with the truth and the Church.

The Grace of a those in communion with heresy leaves little by little as the people become aware and decide to remain with it. It is the responsibility of those who come to this realization to declare this. As we both have agreed, if Christ in His secret judgements protects certain people it is His to do so; but we are bound by the law and the faith passed on to us by the Holy Fathers.

But what I find most disturbing Seraphim, is that your ambiguous argument is not typical of you. I cannot discern if you are making arguments for the Mathewites, Cyprianites, Ecumenists, or Roman Catholics – because they are all justified with the loose ecclesiology you seem to now be promoting. Maybe your position is secondary, and it is only important for you to have my head by whatever means you are able? :)

User avatar
George Australia
Sr Member
Posts: 671
Joined: Sat 17 January 2004 9:26 am
Location: Down Under (Australia, not Hades)

Post by George Australia »

OrthodoxyOrDeath wrote:

George,
If the strugglers for Orthodoxy have been called “old-calendarists”, this is due to the fact that the enemies of Orthodoxy decided to begin her overthrow with the introduction of the Papal calendar. If they had started with something else, the form of the struggle and the designation of Orthodoxy’s strugglers, who today are called “old-calendarists”, would have been different.

Dear OOD,
This is what I mean by "The-Liberation-of-the-Serfs-as-the-root-cause-of-communism" theory. How can anyone say that the Liberation of the Serfs was a Communist plot? In the same way, how can anyone say the the New Calendar was a plot to overthrow Orthodoxy? Was the introduction of the labis a plot to overthrow Orthodoxy?

OrthodoxyOrDeath wrote:

It was the first time an Orthodox Patriarchate overturned the article of the Symbol of Faith “in One . . . Church” and officially proclaimed belief in many “Churches.” For the first time, an Orthodox Patriarchate confessed publicly, and in a most official manner, that the Church of Christ is not One....

Is Christ also an heretic? Because He dictated seven letters addressed to seven Churches symbolised by seven lampstands before the Divine Throne in Heaven.

Regards,
George

OrthodoxyOrDeath

Post by OrthodoxyOrDeath »

George,

... how can anyone say the the New Calendar was a plot to overthrow Orthodoxy?

Whether you want to believe it was a "plot" or not doesn't really matter, It was an act to overthrow Orthodoxy as it is with any heresy introduced in the Church.

Is Christ also an heretic? Because He dictated seven letters addressed to seven Churches symbolised by seven lampstands before the Divine Throne in Heaven.

The Seven letters dictated by the "old man" Christ in Revelations, was to Orthodox churches, who had very pious bishops (or "angels"). The 1920 Encyclical was addressed to Protestant "Churches" of heretics. If you cannot see the difference and its significance, I doubt anything more I would say could be of any use.

User avatar
Seraphim Reeves
Member
Posts: 493
Joined: Sun 27 October 2002 2:10 pm
Location: Canada

Post by Seraphim Reeves »

OOD,

The Grace of a those in communion with heresy leaves little by little as the people become aware and decide to remain with it. It is the responsibility of those who come to this realization to declare this. As we both have agreed, if Christ in His secret judgements protects certain people it is His to do so; but we are bound by the law and the faith passed on to us by the Holy Fathers.

This is where, I believe, much of the modern discussion of "grace" is just that - modern. It's a sort of "meme" that's been thrown out there, and which (undeservedly) has become a sort of coin that everyone dances around, forcing themselves to take either "heads" or "tails" rather than for a moment considering that the answer may be "neither."

"Grace" (Greek - charis) is the favour, loving kindness, joy of God - the word charis itself comes from the primary verb chairo, which at least in Koine Greek, was used as a salutation - as in "rejoice!" This is what "grace" means.

Thus, if we talk about God's grace leaving someone, we are talking about His favour leaving them. Such an abandonment, only comes because the person in question is leaving Him.

We also know, that all grace, ultimatly can be credited to our Lord Jesus Christ - whether in expectation of His coming (in the Old Testament), or more abundantly, as a result of it. In Christ also, we learn an important lesson - that this favour of God, is joined with truth.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (St.John 1:14)

Christ is the Truth, and He is the source of Grace. Thus, to approach Him, is the working of grace, and the invitation to receive "grace for grace" (St.John 1:16). This is why the Church speaks of "the grace before grace", the grace at work in a person before they actually approach the Church and receive Holy Baptism.

I agree with your assessment, that those who are abandoning the truth, as heretics do, are removing themselves from the favour/grace of God. The work of grace is unity, and unity in truth - all divisions (the meaning of the word "schism") in their varying levels of severity, are not the work of grace; nor are they a testament to the truth.

The word "heresy" itself, as used in the Holy Scriptures, is the Greek hairesis which means "to take" or more precisely "choosing/choice" or "that which is chosen". It's root is a verb, haireomai, which is the act of choosing - so the meaning of "heresy" is very clear. It denotes a choice.

Thus, what about a situation where someone holds a wrong view on the revelation of God? Well, while we can loosely call them "heretics", in the strict definition of that term it would apply if we were speaking of a knowledgable, willful choice - the exalting of one's private theology above that of the Church. OTOH, if this knowledge is lacking, it would be accurate to describe their view/views as heterodox - that is different (hetero) from the opinion of the Church (doxos), as opposed to being "orthodox."

While we can make accusations against men who should know better, or against those who we know have rejected correction, what about when this is not the case? People who are simply ignorant, for example? Certainly, even the most "strict confessors" would even find such "heterodoxy" amongst their own, if they dug deeply enough (and in many cases, perhaps not that deeply at all.)

And what about those people whose confession we do not have issue with? What if their offence is that they have kept communion with self exalting heretics through some ignorance, or more to the point that they have for some reason not yet expelled those men from their midst? Is the Church's warning to remove heretics, or to sever ties with them if a situation of lawlessness prevents them from being removed, an indication that there exists such a thing as ecclessiological cooties? Or do these canons act as a cry, a warning, and a preventative medicine - namely the reality that, if you do not disassociate falsehood from yourself, eventually it will claim you too - you and those with you will assimilate it, since you've done nothing to confront it - that which is aggressive taking hold of that which has remained passive.

And that falsehood, once accepted, will lead you astray; for heterodoxy is rooted in the wisdom of men, and not the saving revelation of God. You'll be taking an incorrect map to heart.

Christ's Church (ekklessia - literally those who are "called out", in the context of Christ, those who are called out of the world to God), as He established it, is characterized by truth. Those who are in the truth (orthodox faith), are in the Church. This is manifested in many ways, not the least of which is a pure, unambiguous confession. God's favour is upon such people, and they are receiving "grace for grace."

This is why the Church historically has looked at heterodox bodies in different ways - when there was malice and these persons sewed confusion, what truth they did have was viewed as being in vain; their coming over to the Church was radically in spite of their previous allegiance. In better times, they were received much more leniently - what truth/goods they did have, being built upon, whatever was lacking filled in, whatever done illicitly, given legitimacy. In this there is discernment.

If this is true then of the Church's historical attitude toward those whose errors (held to in an official, creedal manner even - as is the case of the Monophysites, or the Roman Catholics) were real and unambigous, and characterized their former "church", what then about those who have never adopted a false confession, but whose only "crime" is that they are affiliated with bad persons who do propose a novel, private theology, and who they ought to have expelled already? How can they be received as if they are heretics, or even heterodox for that matter? They cannot, for they are not.

I agree with you, that like grievous sinners, any heirarch who proposes a novel theology in spite of the Church (and the "yes men" who agree with the heresairchs) have made themselves dead members of the Church. But can we say such men are no longer Priests (the Priesthood never being for the benefit of it's holder, but for those about them), when they have not been defrocked, or otherwise expelled? While we may say that they celebrate unworthily, and receive the Holy Gifts to their condemnation (like other grievous sinners), can we just say those sacraments are absent? That they do not give grace to those who receive them blamelessly?

All of these considerations, have moved me to realize that the so called "strict" position on these matters, as voiced by some in our days, is a gross oversimplification. It is also a view which of itself has consequences - and they are rotten to the core. If heretics lawless, and the pastors who do not expell them, there is an opposite form of lawlessness to come from this "strict" but undiscerning view - the Church being reduced to a form of quasi-Protestantism, where every man becomes not simply an interpreter but also enforcer of the Holy Canons, and the Church ceases to be a visible reality - a light upon a hill. Instead, it becomes "sola Rudder" instead of "sola Scriptura". Give it enough time - those who hold such views and judge prematurely, will become as fractuous and divided as the Protestants. Actually, it's already happening - whether it be in the Greek, or Russian contexts.

IMHO, the wheat and the chaff are still being separated by the winowing fan of our Lord Jesus Christ. This used to be the view of the Florinites (even after the reported "waivering" of Metropolitan Chrysostmos toward the end of his life - the idea that the Greek Church Calendarists changed overnight in 1948 being manifestly untrue), and eating a big pile of crow, I must state the obvious - this has always been true of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad as well. I have never known of ROCA Chrismating people who came to Her from other local Churches, let alone treating them as if they were unbaptized - that includes within the reign of the blessed former First Heirarch Metropolitan Philaret.

If none of this is as simple and tidy as some would desire, I would say that life often is this way - filled with lots of ambiguity and grey zones which only time or a universal consciousness will heal. Also, while it can be true that sometimes simplicity is a sign of truthfulness, often simplicity can also merely be the refuge of simpletons.

Seraphim

OrthodoxyOrDeath

Post by OrthodoxyOrDeath »

Seraphim,

There seems to be some cross posting but I at least answered some of this in the other thread....

http://www.euphrosynoscafe.com/forum/vi ... 9383#19383

I am sorry if it is not as thorough of an answer as the question may have presented, but clean / organized thoughts don't spill out of my head like they seem to do for you, and this is the best I can acomplish with a short amount of time.

I would like to add one note to my above linked reference: We as Orthodox Christians are independent thinkers only up to a point. Sooner or later it is nessesary to reconcile with the faith of the Church and Her Bishops. Perhaps that may mean the ecclesiology of one over another, but sooner or later you must align with a position of an existing synod. That is of course unless, as you warn, we become like the priestless old-believers.

So your espressions of thought are all well and find, and I find them attractive to an extent, but you must pin yourself down to a synod and argue their arguments sooner or later. I think we are in danger to a certain degree of pride and perhaps even heresy ourselves until this happens. Which synod would that be at this point for you?

Post Reply