What is the point of attaining Theosis?

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Lazarún Zalónir
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Re: What is the point of attaining Theosis?

Post by Lazarún Zalónir »

eish wrote: Sun 10 November 2024 7:44 am
Hjalti wrote: Sun 10 November 2024 5:27 am

I thought that good actions only ultimately come from God? Is this mono-energism?

I have it that monoenergism is a form of monophysitism. Perhaps we are speaking past each other there.

Goodness does only come from God. The heresy which opposes this idea is Pelagianism. Pelagius and his followers taught--with some small variations--that man is able to choose to do/be good of his own free will without God. St. Augustine wrote against Pelagius and Calvin misinterpreted this traditional teaching as a denial of free will.

The opposite heresy of Calvin--double predestination--really comes from Islam before him. Mohammed, Calvin, and their followers teach that God makes all the decisions. Since God in this heresy decides to send some people to hell and others to heaven, to make some commit sin and others virtue, this would make Him the author of confusion contra 1 Cor. 14.

Christians believe that there must be synergy between God and man. God gives salvation and every goodness, freely, which man can never have of his own. However He does not force Himself on us.

But rather let the Holy Fathers explain the subtleties than myself. What you have asked is the question of Germanus in the Conference of St. Paphnutius, in St. John Cassian's collection:

Where then is there room for free will, and how is it ascribed to our efforts that we are worthy of praise, if God both begins and ends everything in us which concerns our salvation?

St. Paphnutius wrote:

...
And so as we know that God creates opportunities of salvation in various ways, it is in our power to make use of the opportunities granted to us by heaven more or less earnestly. For just as the offer came from God Who called him “get thee out of thy country,” so the obedience was on the part of Abraham who went forth; and as the fact that the saying “Come into the land” was carried into action, was the work of him who obeyed, so the addition of the words “which I will show thee” came from the grace of God Who commanded or promised it. But it is well for us to be sure that although we practise every virtue with unceasing efforts, yet with all our exertions and zeal we can never arrive at perfection, nor is mere human diligence and toil of itself sufficient to deserve to reach the splendid reward of bliss, unless we have secured it by means of the co-operation of the Lord, and His directing our heart to what is right.
...

https://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf21 ... v.xii.html

What is wrong with once saved always saved? Would it not imply that the saints in heaven can fall if they are not always saved after they have been saved?.

Once saved always saved is a heresy about this mortal life. The saints living in the world right now, are able to fall. The saints in heaven are not. They have chosen to be with Christ eternally, which by the very meaning of eternal means that their decision is now set in stone. This loss of ability to defect is not a lack of free will on their part, but precisely their free choice being exercised.

What is the purpose of attaining Theosis despite man seing himself as utterly unworthy of such a task?

God is the purpose. He is the goal. He is the end of all good desires. If theosis is the person being filled with the Divine Energies (i.e. Divine Operations) then this means per se that the one who aims for theosis aims for all of his own operations to enact the Operations of God. For every act and every thought to be filled with the Mercy of God, the Grace of God, the Justice of God, the Wisdom of God, the Goodness of God, the Love of God, etc. Not because he can in himself be anything approaching those, but because he loves and trusts God and permits God to act through him.

Thus man takes the free will which he has received as a gift from God, and offers it back as a sacrifice to God, and precisely by giving it, receives it all the more. In this he will come to know God, for the Operations of God are themselves God.

Your question confuses me. In light of the above, why would man's unworthiness dissuade him from desiring theosis? To be filled with Goodness, with Love, is all the more desirable given how unworthy we are.

Eish, you think Hjalti might be leaning a little too close to Gnostic ideals?

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eish
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Re: What is the point of attaining Theosis?

Post by eish »

Asking questions about terms one does not understand is not a heresy. There is a world of difference between a man who is confused by an apparent contradiction and asks “wouldn't that imply” and a man insisting that something is that way.

Excessive pietism in one's self-condemnation, is also not the gnostic heresy. Instead what is wrong with it, is that once one begins to deny one's chance at salvation and glorification, one begins to commit the sin of despair. It is demonic in origin and a very serious problem.

There is a difference. We are told to condemn ourselves but also to not despair.

I know that I'm a sinner. I know I don't deserve salvation. I know that with the path I'm on, I will be condemned. In contrast, I know that I can be saved. I know that I have the opportunity to repent and even to attain the greatest heights of spiritual life. If I would only repent even the spaces by the Throne of God, among the seraphim, the cherubim, the martyrs and the great hierarchs, would be available to me. It is not a contradiction but in fact, it underlines the seriousness of my condemnation.

I have nothing but condemnation on my head and nothing but hope before me.

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Re: What is the point of attaining Theosis?

Post by Lazarún Zalónir »

eish wrote: Sun 10 November 2024 8:53 am

Asking questions about terms one does not understand is not a heresy. There is a world of difference between a man who is confused by an apparent contradiction and asks “wouldn't that imply” and a man insisting that something is that way.

Excessive pietism in one's self-condemnation, is also not the gnostic heresy. Instead what is wrong with it, is that once one begins to deny one's chance at salvation and glorification, one begins to commit the sin of despair. It is demonic in origin and a very serious problem.

There is a difference. We are told to condemn ourselves but also to not despair.

I know that I'm a sinner. I know I don't deserve salvation. I know that with the path I'm on, I will be condemned. In contrast, I know that I can be saved. I know that I have the opportunity to repent and even to attain the greatest heights of spiritual life. If I would only repent even the spaces by the Throne of God, among the seraphim, the cherubim, the martyrs and the great hierarchs, would be available to me. It is not a contradiction but in fact, it underlines the seriousness of my condemnation.

I have nothing but condemnation on my head and nothing but hope before me.

Well he told me he lived in the matrix 😬 I'm worried... ☹️

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Re: What is the point of attaining Theosis?

Post by eish »

Metaphorically? There might not be anything wrong with that. People use terms like the blue pill/red pill/matrix regularly. I could say that scales fell from my eyes after 2020, or someone might say that he was living in the matrix before that.

There are gnostic themes in the film because the tranny Jews who made it, are heavily into gnostic ideas. (Unsurprising given the nature of Judaism.) People who use many such pop culture terms are often in a false enlightenment which is often heavily gnostic. Think of all the “great awakening” types posting online about pineal glands and God gene vaccines...That's just because quoting pseudo-spiritual media a lot is a sign of exposing oneself to it a lot.

Other times it's just a word. A metaphor.

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Re: What is the point of attaining Theosis?

Post by Hjalti »

Thanks for service.

Last edited by Hjalti on Sun 10 November 2024 10:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What is the point of attaining Theosis?

Post by Hjalti »

Thank God, for He is the answer.

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