Positions Within ROCOR

Information, news stories, and questions about True Traditionalist Orthodox Churches. This is the place to post encyclicals and any official public communications from True Orthodox jurisdictions.


Moderator: Mark Templet

Post Reply
Justin Kissel

Positions Within ROCOR

Post by Justin Kissel »

Nektarios recently posted a well thought out summation of recent discussions that have been going on here at the cafe, and, if I may, I'd here like to post something of a summation of the various positions within ROCOR for consideration and criticism. While it would perhaps make the dinstinctions more vivid (or easy to remember), I will avoid using names in the summation. The main reason for this is that I don't want to "box anyone in" (or have anyone feel like they are being boxed in. And indeed, many things in life are often neither black nor white, but somewhere in between, and so most people probably fall, to some extent, between the categories.

Having made this note, though, I do think it would be helpful to discuss the various positions in ROCOR, and which are tenable (according to her history), and which are not (and to what extent they are tenable--ie. are some on the fringe?). I think a lot of the errors and division that has happened in the past few decades has happened because people don't seem to realise that there are more than one tenable ecclesiological position within ROCOR. People find out about a concelebration with the Serbs, or read something that sounds like we are going to unite with the MP very soon, and they run for cover, completely leaving the Church Abroad.

Well, we've always had concelebrations with the Serbs (and "worse" has happened, forty and fifty years ago, as perhaps will be shown later in the thread), and we've always spoken of Christians within the MP--normally monks, layman, and priests--with some sympathy. On the other hand, there have been voices that steadfastly stood against any contact with world Orthodoxy, and there have also been those who spoke of the MP in a very harsh. But perhaps we can discuss this further as the thread progresses (and I have faith that you and I, my brothers and sisters, will keep this civil :) ).

One last note before I list (in my understanding) the positions: none of the terms I use are used in a pejorative manner. I use both the word "zealot" and "unionist" here, but neither do I use in a derogatory way. I believe there have been sincere people in the past, and there are such people in the present, affirming all of these positions. [1]

1) Zealot - Those in this group believe that the MP is without grace, that the only true Christians in Russia for the past couple-few generations were in the Catacomb Church. Some in this group believe that the Russian Church cannot be healed, though most only believe that it will not be healed anytime soon. Those in this group tend to react very negatively to any language that speaks positively of the MP or world Orthodoxy as this is seen as a corruption of the Church because of influence of "the west" or "ecumenism". Concelebrations, and even meetings, with the Serbs and those of the Jerusalem Patriarchate should be avoided, and the Cyprianites and other old calendarists (that ROCOR is in communion with) should be watched with extreme caution.

2) Rigorist - Those in this group believe that it is impossible to say whether the MP has grace, or that it is better not to speak of such things at all (ie. not to even speculate on the matter). Most in this group look foward to a united Russia, but are extremely skeptical, and doubt it will happen within their lifetime. All that the MP and other Churches (or perhaps they would call them "psuedo-Churches") do is to be looked upon with a wary eye, since the hierarchy is almost totally corrupted. A mostly untalked about communion with Serbia should continue, as should the communion with the various old-calendarists who have "walled themselves off". It is thought that we may have to eventually cut ties with one or all of these groups, however.

3) Moderate - Those in this group believe that there is grace in some of the churches of the MP, though also affirm that there was certainly grace in the catacomb Church. The oft-talked-about all-Russian council is eagerly looked forward to, though when the time for it comes those in this group will become increasingly vigilant and watchful, so that the truth and reality is not lost in anticipation of a glorious union. The MP and world Orthodoxy are looked upon with a wary eye, but when they do something good they are commended for it, and when they suffer, those in this group feel their suffering. Communion with the Serbs, Jerusalem, the Cyprianites, et al., should be strengthened if circumstances allow, and positive signs are seen in these groups. Met. Cyprian's ecclesiological discourse regarding the various Greek factions reminds us that we too (the Russians) are not by ourselves, but are only seperated for a time until we reunite in the future.

4) Unionists - Those in this group believe not only that there is grace in the MP, but that the MP has been taking major steps towards repairing the damage done. There are still mistakes that are made, and there are still mistakes in the past which need to be admitted to, but overall those in this group push for talks and discussion in preperation for union (ie. for an all-Russian council where unity could come about). Serbia and the other groups we are in communion with are not only our friends, but they should even be sought out to help us in our attempt to bring the Russian Church together again. Those in this group are wary of much of what they see in some of the more liberal world Orthodox jurisdictions/Churches, but think that all the more reason to strive for unity in the Russian Church.

Corrections on any of these are welcomed, of course! :) If necessary, I can (I'm almost positive) give a historical example, quote from a contemporary saint, or some other such evidence, in support of everything I said about each group. Or put more simply, those in the groups could provide evidence for their holding to the beliefs that they do. There are other positions held to within ROCOR, but these are not, in my estimation, not tenable Orthodox positions. Those to the right of the Zealots, the sectarions, and those to the left of the unionists, the ecumenists, are not acceptable positions in the Church so far as I understand.

This whole thing was not posted so we can all "jump in our boxes" and so continue the arguing with convenient labels on us. As I said before, one of the main reasons I posted this was to remind us (and to remind myself!) that there are small differences in ecclesiology within ROCOR, and we must not be smug about the whole situation, but must discuss thing openly and in a civil manner. Some will oppose such a division into "camps," and indeed if people start using these labels to attack each other I too would oppose such a division.

Again, the point of the listing of divisions was not so that we could attack (or jab) one another, but so that we can proceed in discussing the issues in a more fruitful way. I think that we must stop looking at the Church as though all of her hierarchs, councils, and priests have taught the same thing: for surely they did not. We need to realise that sometimes things are muddy: that sometimes a council said one thing; while a bishop had a different, privately held, position; while at another place a priest said something totally opposite. If we don't realise this, we will never make any progress, we will never get to the real issue: What should the position of the Church today be? What is the most Orthodox and acceptable position to affirm right here, right now?.

I believe that our ROCOR hierarchs knew all of this that I am saying (if I speak truthfully in this post), before I (and many members of this forum) were even born. Our bishops grew up experiencing and seeing first hand the various factions and positions, and being led by the holy spirit, know full well which is the most sensible. So why have I posted this if I think my hierarchs already know all of this? For one, so that we can go past arguing and start to understand, so that when they make the decisions they make we will understand (not that we should rebel if we don't understand!)

And secondly, though the bishop know, many of the monks, laity, and priests get caught up in the rhetoric and sometimes lose track of where reality is (I speak of all sides, not simply those who I disagree with). Some leave ROCOR altogether and join another sect, Church, or schismatic group; some become frustrated and leave the Church altogether. This second reason is especially fearful to me, for we who discuss these issues will certainly have to answer for what we have said when we appear before the holy, just Judge. How fearful will it be for us if the only fruits that are produced by all this online talk are rotten fruit?

Something else that needs to be discussed and doesn't seem to be getting discussed--from what I've seen anyway--is what our position should be today. We can quote Saint Justin, and Fr. Seraphim, and St. John of San Francisco, and all sorts of hierarchs and priests, and documents, and historical examples: but we must admit that things are changing now. Certainly we must look to our fathers--both past and present--for guidance, but we cannot blindly quote every person who seems to agree with our position, assuming that they would say or do the same things today.

I submit this all for your correction.

Justin

[1] Just for further clarification, when I speak of a "zealot," I am speaking of someone extremely zealous who takes a hard, firm stance a good distance away from the "moderate position". Theodore the Studite, or Mark of Ephesus, would be examples of this position: saints who took drastic steps to cut off what they saw as immense wrongs. On the other side, when I speak of "unionists," I of course don't mean participants in the ecumenical movement (WCC, etc.), but rather those who strive for unity in a way that is completely opposite the zealots. Unionists would perhaps take Saints such as Basil the Great as their example: saints who bent over backwards for a long while in an attempt to keep peace in the Church and set things right in the Church.

Justin Kissel

Post by Justin Kissel »

Sheesh, you forget one "/" and half the post is bold! :) Since I can't edit my own posts, could I get some help from a moderator here? ;)

User avatar
尼古拉前执事
Archon
Posts: 5118
Joined: Thu 24 October 2002 7:01 pm
Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Non-Phylitist
Location: Euless, TX, United States of America
Contact:

The roof, the roof, the roof is on fire!

Post by 尼古拉前执事 »

That seems about right to me. Many of the zealots have left and it is a much smaller group than 10 years ago.

I think the issue comes when zealots are under a unionist bishop or unionists are under a zealot bishop.

Then we get issues like the whole Australlia & Bishop Gabriel situation. It is hard to have so many camps under one roof.

Justin Kissel

Post by Justin Kissel »

The following is an interesting quote from Orthodoxy in America by Fr. Seraphim. The context is that he was talking about "correctness disease":

Even when it is not fanatical, this spirit of "correctness" for its own sake turns out to be fruitless. As an example, I can tell you of a very good friend of ours, one of the zealot fathers of Mt. Athos. He is a "moderate" zealot, in that he recognizes the grace of New Calendar sacraments, accepts the blessings of priests of our Church, and the like; but he is absolutely strict when it comes to applying the basic Zealot principle, not to have communion not only with bishops whose teaching departs from Orthodox truth, such as the Patriarch of Constantinople, and not only with anyone who has communion with him, but with anyone who has communion with anyone who in any remote way has communion with him. Such "purity" is so difficult to attain in our days (our whole Russian Church Abroad, for example, is "tainted" in his eyes by some measure of communion with the other Orthodox Churches) that he is in communion with only his own priest and ten other monks in his group on the Holy Mountain; all of the rest of the Orthodox Church is not "pure."

Perhaps there are only ten or twelve people left in the world who are perfectly "strict" and "pure" in their Orthodoxy -- this I really don't know; but it simply cannot be that there are really only ten or twelve Orthodox Christians left in the world with whom one can have true oneness of faith, expressed in common communion. I think that you can see that there is some kind of spiritual dead-end here; even if we had to believe such a narrow view of Orthodoxy according to the letter, our believing Christian heart would rebel against it. We cannot really live by such strictness; we must somehow be less "correct" and closer to the heart of Orthodox Christianity.

OrthodoxyOrDeath

Post by OrthodoxyOrDeath »

The Position of the New Calendarists:
“There are many pious bishops and presbyters among us (the new-calendarists) who preserve the truth, love the authentic Faith, cleave steadfastly to the traditions of the Fathers, become deeply grieved over the stunts and the presumptuous acts of certain leaders of the Church, but using economia they bear with them, sparing the Church’s peace.”

The Reply of the Church Fathers:
“Any servant who kept his peace and did nothing in order to prevent thieves from breaking into his master’s house to rob it, but allowed them to take everything secretly and to leave, would be condemned by his master as being a treacherous thief like them, even if he had done nothing to assist them. Homily Seventy-Eight Saint Symeon the New Theologian

“Even if one should give away all his possessions in the world, and yet be in communion with heresy, he cannot be a friend of God, but is rather an enemy.” - Saint Theodore the Studite

“Submit not yourselves to monastics, nor to presbyters, who teach lawless things and evilly propound them. And why do I say only monastics or presbyters? Follow not even after bishops who guilefully exhort you to do and say and believe things that are not profitable. What pious man will keep silence, or who will remain altogether at peace? For silence means consent. Often times war is known to be praiseworthy, and a battle proves to be better than a peace that harms the soul. For it is better to separate ourselves from them who do not believe aright than to follow them in evil concord, and by our union with them separate ourselves from God.” - Saint Meletius the Confessor

“For when the [unbelievers and heretics], though established in a lie, use every means to conceal the shamefulness of their opinions, while we, the servants of the truth, cannot even open our mouths, how can they help condemning the great weakness of our doctrine? How can they help suspecting our religion to be fraud and folly? How shall they not blaspheme Christ as a deceiver, and a cheat . . . ? And we are to blame for this blasphemy, because we do not desire to be wakeful in arguments for piety, but deem these things superfluous, and care only for the things of earth.” - Homily Seventeen on the Gospel of Saint John, Saint John Chrysostom

“Any one who is able to speak the truth and does not do so shall be condemned by God.” --Dialogue with Trypho, chap. 82, Saint Justin the Philosopher

“It is a commandment of the Lord that we should not be silent when the Faith is in peril. So, when it is a matter of the Faith, one cannot say, ‘What am I? A priest, a ruler, a soldier, a farmer, a poor man? I have no say or concern in this matter.’ Alas! The stones shall cry out, and you remain silent and unconcerned?” Epistle Eighty-One, Saint Theodore the Studite

The Position of the New Calendarists:
“The beloved Old Calendarists left so they might not give up something of small consequence, - they are letter worshippers, fanatics… “

The Reply of the Church Fathers:
"The fact that we do not become indignant over small matters is the cause of all our calamities; and because slight errors escape fitting correction, greater ones creep in. As in a body, a neglect of wounds generates fever, infection and death; so in the soul, slight evils overlooked open the door to graver ones . . . But if a proper rebuke had at first been given to those who attempted to depart from the divine sayings and change some small matter, such a pestilence would not have been generated, nor such a storm have seized upon the Church; for he that overturns even that which is minor in the sound Faith, will cause ruin in all.” Homily One on the Epistle to the Galatians, Saint John Chrysostom

“The sixteenth century gave birth to four great beasts: the heresy of Luther, the heresy of Calvin, the heresy of the Jesuits, and the heresy of the new calendar. The heresies of Luther and Calvin were refuted by [such and such] . . . As for the heresy of the new calendar, this was condemned by a decision of the great Ecumenical Council that met in Constantinople in 1593.” Confession of the Orthodox Faith, Dositheus, Patriarch of Jerusalem

Post Reply