Where is The Church?

[drewmeister2]

I oftentimes hear from World "Orthodox" that we know where the Church is, but we don't know where it isn't.

Is this an ecumenical statement? I would think so, as I would think we definately know where the Church isn't: wherever there is heresy. Only those who hold to the Truth are Orthodox, and thus are the Church.

Am I right in what I said above?

Thanks.

[Грешник]

The interesting thing about this in reference to World Orthodox is that there are more cases of WO telling people that "this group" or "that group" is not Orthodox because they are not in communion with them or because the yare not affiliated with SCOBA. So when it matters they certainly seem to know where they think the Church is not!

I am not saying that Trads are any better or worse at this because we know we can all name a few pwoplw in prominent positions who have general statements that they intended to be the voice of a Synod when in fact they were personal beliefs.

This is not a statement easily clarified today. We know where the Church is because of what She believes. OrthoPraxis leads one to true Orthodoxy.

[Kollyvas]

Where there is the Orthodox Eucharist, that by definition is the Church. The whole issue of where the Church "is not" implies a tacit acceptance of protestant ideas of a "mystical church." It has no Patristic or Canonical or even Evangelical foundation. They do try to avail themselves of the Scripture, "Where two or three are gathered in my name..." But arians, gnostics, even mormons gather/ed in His name, and we know they aren't the Church. In general Apostolic Transmission in rightness of Faith typefied by the ONE Chalice, and that is ONLY Orthodoxy.
R

[AndyHolland]

It is very easy to discern where the Church is. This Holy Saturday, the Lord will show the world, as he has every Holy Saturday for 1000 years that the true Church is Orthodox. He does this through the miracle of the Holy Fire which only comes to the Orthodox Patriarch in Jerusalem.

The Lord is faithful, even if we are not faithful and his mercy endures for ever. He makes chrystal clear where the church is, as he made his commandments known in the Holy Gospels, in Holy Scripture, in the Saints and in the teachings of the Holy Fathers - for Holy Scripture is not a matter of personal interpretation.

When the Armenians locked the Orthodox out of the Church of the Holy Resurrection, the Holy Fire burst through a pillar and lit the Patriarch's candle for all to see.

http://www.holyfire.org/eng/doc_GreatMiracle.htm

Additionally, the Holy Thorn of Glastonbury blooms on Orthodox Christmas at midnight - and came from the staff of St. Joseph of Arimathea who also placed our Lord, with Nicodemus, in the new tomb. If you truly want to find the Church, make a pilgrimage to Glastonbury England, and to the Holy Land in Jerusalem and see these things for yourself.

andy holland
sinner

[Chrysostomos]

I oftentimes hear from World "Orthodox" that we know where the Church is, but we don't know where it isn't.

drewmeister2,

Being "World Orthodox", I can honestly say that I haven't heard anyone within the Diocese of the West/OCA, say the above.

Most of us concern ourselves with the daily task of attempting to manifest Christ in our lives to the world. Attempting to do the things that Christ told us to do. Attending liturgy, other services and partaking of the sacraments, and hopefully praying on a daily basis.

The interesting thing about this in reference to World Orthodox is that there are more cases of WO telling people that "this group" or "that group" is not Orthodox because they are not in communion with them or because the yare not affiliated with SCOBA. So when it matters they certainly seem to know where they think the Church is not!

Juvenaly,

Once again, same experience, as mentioned above. If anything, since joining this board some time ago, all I have heard is how we "WO" are not Orthodox by the Trads on this board. I have rarely if ever heard anyone who is "WO" on this board indicate that Trads are not Orthodox. Myself included.

For that matter, Trads amongst themselves have a challenge with one another. Look at Fr. Deacon's recent map. Who is considered truly Trad, and who isn't. Whatever the criteria is, it seems to get smaller and smaller.

The "Church" are the people, the bride of Christ. May God's grace be graciously abundant upon us as we approach Pascha and may we truly not only utter "Christ is Risen", but manifest that image of Christ and his Ressurection in our lives so that others will be transformed by it and glorify God. That we the "Church" of the Orthodox Faith, represent her better to the world, so that we might draw all people unto Christ our Lord and Savior.

Why does it appear that so much time is spent on determining and discussing who is Orthodox, rather than living it, and bringing more people into the Faith? Why does it appear that more time and messages are spent in many other sections and that Praxis is lacking the message base. Why? Could it be, that Praxis involves more ourselves and focusing on where we "stand" in relationship to God?
While the others are more outward looking?

I wonder....

Your fellow struggler in Christ,

Rd. Chrysostomos

[Justin Kissel]

I oftentimes hear from World "Orthodox" that we know where the Church is, but we don't know where it isn't.

Bp. Kallistos said this in his book The Orthodox Church: "We know where the Church is but we cannot be sure where it is not; and so we must refrain from passing judgment on non-Orthodox Christians." I don't know if anyone before him used a quote very much like this one, but the sentiment of his belief is taken from what many Fathers have said over the centuries. Met. Philaret of ROCOR--who can hardly be called an ecumenist!--expressed a similar sentiment in this text.

[Kollyvas]

There can be no further disconnect in quotes. Blessed +Metropolitan Philaret is talking about whether or not the Orthodox Church presumes to say that the heterodox can be saved BECAUSE THEY ARE OUTSIDE OF THE CHURCH whilst +kallistos, in classic eastern rite anglican form, is arguing that Orthodox ecclesiology must consider more than just formal Orthodox understandings and entertain the protestant-ecumenist idea of a "mystical church of believers which is not necessarily a historical or earthly institution." +kallistos' entire ecclesiological miasma is based off this anglican remnant he reinserted into his thought. Succinctly, IF CHRIST WOULD NOT HAVE wanted the Church to emanate through His Holy Apostles, there would have been no Pentecost, no need of Apostles--there would just have been one luther-inspired pietist with a book or a few words in his mind and a blind prayer to "whatever may be the heavenly truth." Yes, there is no salvation outside the Church, for the Church is precisely the Body of the Master, WHO IS THE ONLY ONE ON WHOM WE MAY VOUCHSAFE OUR SALVATION, and this is typefied by the Holy Eucharist, WHICH IS His Holy Body & Precious Blood, non-existent outside of Orthodoxy. Recapitulating Blessed +Metropolitan Philaret, he includes the possibility of salvation outside the Church by Divine Economy, as a mechanism of Divine Mercy, but underscores that speculations on such actions are NOT the province of the Church. He is clear in stating that we are indeed well aware of the boundaries of the Church, which leaves his dissonance with the ecumenical adventuring +kallistos unquestioned. Now, if one is going to imply that since there is no salvation outside of the Church, because the Church is Christ and He is the only way to salvation, does that not also necessarily mean that we are really unaware of the boundaries of the Church? There is no Patristic or Canonical witness in the phronema to affirm this grave error. But what there is is the understanding that the Master reigns in triumph in the eschaton and that He has empowered the Church to bind and loose but lives in His Body by the Holy Spirit grafting in by grace. Those He would have mercy on do not remain outside of the Church but are spiritually grafted in by full affirmation of Orthodoxy by His will, meaning, spiritually He brings about their conversion into Orthodoxy when and AS He wills. The dissonance here with +kallistos and the ecumenist vision is this: while they allow for an expanded ecclesiological model of "other flocks by grace," the Orthodox maintain that, no, such operative grace would mean their inclusion would be by the Spirit but still affirming the one Orthodox Church and her boundaries and TRUTH. Just as there is one Christ there can be only one Church. Christ has ONE Body, ONE CHURCH, Holy Orthodoxy--there are no equivalent parallels. Therefore those who would argue that Orthodoxy has "sister churches" preach more than one Christ, for they are saying that Christ is His Church and Christ is this "mystical church." There aren't two Christs and as is clear from the dissonance and lack of Mysteries of the heterodox, they aren't Orthodox. THERE IS NO "Church" in other confessions. So another Christ necessarily is being preached and that is a blasphemy. No, only by Holy Orthodoxy, even in unknown "mystical ways" is there a Church or salvation in Christ Jesus. Now, then, we know where the Church is precisely and where it is not, BUT when the Master wills to graft in to our Church others by the Spirit, He does so in a Mystery, but that Mystery implies operation within Orthodoxy in a mystical sense, not amongst any heretical sects or para-churches. Blessed +Metropolitan Philaret's thought further is clear that for an Orthodox Christian the boundaries and Truth are fixed and deviation from them, by entertaining where the "Church might be," leads to spiritually dire error, for he asserts that the Orthodox Christian knows PRECISELY WHERE THE CHURCH IS AND ITS LIMITS, underscoring that transsgressing those limits endangers ones immortal soul.
Orthodoxia I Thanatos!
Rostislav Mikhailovich Malleev-Pokrovsky