Letter to Orthodox from Roman Catholic

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Joseph
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Letter to Orthodox from Roman Catholic

Post by Joseph »

Can anyone in world Orthodoxy offer an answer to the two questions at the end of this letter?

Letter To An Orthodox Friend From A Seeker

Dear _____________,

I pray this letter finds you and your family in good health.

As you have encouraged me to do, I am continuing to explore the teachings of the Orthodox Faith and compare them with the teachings of my own Roman Catholic Faith. Since our last conversation I have read a lot and learned quite a bit of Orthodox history, which has raised some questions in my mind, that I hope you will answer for me. If I have misunderstood or misrepresented something, please let me know.

In reading the history of the Church I see that there were some major disagreements between the East and Rome that lead up to what has been termed the Great Schism. From my reading it appears that Rome had begun to teach some things that the East considered totally unacceptable and incompatible with the Orthodox teachings such as the authority of the pope over all of Christendom as the Vicar of Christ and all that this dogma implies for salvation; the Immaculate Conception; the addition of the Filioque in the Creed; salvation by the special merits of the saints; created vs. uncreated Grace; purgatory and other issues.

From my reading I see that many whom the Orthodox now honor as fathers and confessors opposed these things as taught by Rome. Eventually, East and West went their separate ways with each one condemning and excommunicating the other. I have been trying with all sincerity to search out the truth to determine who really preserved the Apostolic Faith unchanged.

The more I read, the more it becomes clear to me that the fathers, confessors and councils of the East preserved the Faith unchanged, while a number of things in the West were undergoing change and resulting in different and new dogmas, even the dogma of salvation, itself. I find myself agreeing more and more with the Orthodox fathers and councils who condemned the new dogmas of Rome as heretical, pronounced anathemas against these teachings and excommunicated anyone who held these teachings.

I have been amazed as I read the lives of such Eastern saints and fathers as Gregory Palamas, Photius, Germanos, Mark of Ephesus and others to see how they refused union with Rome and taught that the faithful should flee from any communion with the Latins and even the Orthodox who are Latin minded.

Seeing how things did change in the West and how the fathers of the East fought and gave their lives to oppose what they saw as the “heresies of the Latins,” I have been moving more towards the feeling that I should leave the Roman Catholic Church and start attending the Orthodox Church.

But just this week, I ran across some things that raised a whole new set of questions for me and have me perplexed. This is where I hope you can help me.

I was reading about Orthodox participation in dialogue with the pope and his representatives. I have learned a number of things that I wonder about, such as:
-The Orthodox have lifted the anathemas against Rome that were once imposed by those who are still honored by the Orthodox as saints, fathers and Ecumenical councils;
-The Orthodox have announced that the pope of Rome is recognized as the bishop of Christendom while the Patriarch of Constantinople is perceived more as the bishop of the East.
-Orthodox now accept Rome as your “sister Church” and have announced that the sacraments of the Roman Catholic Church are just as valid as those of the Orthodox. Now Roman Catholics do not need to be baptized to be received into the Orthodox Church. In fact both sides have agreed to cease from trying to win people from one side to the other since both sides are recognized as the “two lungs” of the Church.
-Orthodox bishops have announced that Orthodox can receive the Eucharist in Roman Catholic Churches and vice versa under certain circumstances.
-I read about your Orthodox Patriarch, who, as the leader and spokesperson for all of Orthodoxy, participated in the Mass with our pope and how they exchanged the Kiss of Peace, which indicates full Eucharistic union. I have heard that joint prayers and Mass between Orthodox and Roman Catholics take place quite often.
-I have read about recent meetings between East and West dealing with the Filioque. My understanding is that they have essentially concluded that the uproar over the Filioque in the past was due to misunderstandings and they agreed that we all mean essentially the same thing whether we insert the Filioque or not. (I was glad to see that they have come to the same conclusions about the differences between the Orthodox and the Monophysites as well.)

What I am getting at is this. All of these new developments are very encouraging but they also raise some questions for which I need answers.

They are encouraging because I think it would be wonderful if we could just all be one and stop the bickering and divisions. I really don’t want to leave my Roman Catholic parish. I love our priest and all my family attends there. Our priest is really wonderful and he sounds very Orthodox in what he says and believes.

In view of all these recent developments and agreements, why should I leave the Roman Catholic Church to become Orthodox? It seems that we are practically one already and if our bishops can worship together and share the Kiss of Peace, and if our sacraments are all the same what really is the difference?

I recently talked with a Roman Catholic priest who was going through the same questions I was going through and was considering becoming Orthodox. He visited an Orthodox monastery in the Northeast and was amazed to find that they venerate Roman Catholic saints there and the monks told him there was no reason for him to leave the Roman Catholic Church to become Orthodox. I assume all of this is known and approved by their bishop.

On the other hand, when I think about it, I am perplexed about what the Orthodox fathers, confessors and councils said about all of this. I know that our Roman Catholic Church still holds to the idea of the supremacy and infallibility of the pope as the Vicar of Christ on earth. I know we still use the Filioque, baptize by sprinkling or pouring, believe in the Immaculate Conception, purgatory, and other things that have been points of disagreement in the past. I really have not seen anything to indicate that we have changed any of the dogmas that once separated us from the Orthodox. It seems that the agreements and unions are now being accomplished on the basis that the disagreements of the past were due to misunderstandings. I am reading things that suggest that the fathers of the past were blinded by the culture of their day, a culture that was more barbaric and less loving. Our leaders today seem to have better insights into some of these issues than the saints of the past did.

My only concern here is this. If the saints, fathers, confessors and councils of the past acted out of ignorance, blindness, lovelessness or lack of understanding, where was the Holy Spirit guiding the Church in all of this? And if the fathers were wrong concerning the Monophysites and Latins, how can we trust anything they taught? Maybe they were also wrong or in darkness about the Arians, the Iconoclasts, the dogmas of the Trinity, the Sacraments, the Church and even salvation itself. And if they were wrong and caused all these years of division and conflict needlessly, how can we still honor them as bearers of the Grace of God?

I hope you can help me out of my dilemma by answering two questions for me. Why should I leave the Roman Catholic Church to become Orthodox and how can we trust anything the Fathers taught if we now know they misunderstood many of these issues?

I hope we can get together soon for some more discussions.

Yours truly,


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Jean-Serge
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Oh Great letter

Post by Jean-Serge »

Great letter... Where does it come from? I am going to translate it to French...

Priidite, poklonimsja i pripadem ko Hristu.

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SouthernOrthodox
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Post by SouthernOrthodox »

Wow great letter. It does make a person at least stop and think. To search for answers though the history of our Fathers, could almost drive a person to maddness. If one takes a stand and say's "if i'm right then you couldn't be right", one would have to go pre-1054. to fine the sky is really blue. Wow good stuff.

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joasia
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Post by joasia »

Response from a former Roman Catholic,

The Orthodox have lifted the anathemas against Rome that were once imposed by those who are still honored by the Orthodox as saints, fathers and Ecumenical councils;

This is due to the ecumenist agenda and is still considered against the decisions of the Ecumenical Councils concerning heresy. The See of Rome has not repented for their heretical actions and is still considered under anathema by true Orthodox standards.

The Orthodox have announced that the pope of Rome is recognized as the bishop of Christendom while the Patriarch of Constantinople is perceived more as the bishop of the East.

Never heard of such a thing. Even the Patriarch would not want himself to be lowered in status.

Orthodox now accept Rome as your “sister Church” and have announced that the sacraments of the Roman Catholic Church are just as valid as those of the Orthodox. Now Roman Catholics do not need to be baptized to be received into the Orthodox Church. In fact both sides have agreed to cease from trying to win people from one side to the other since both sides are recognized as the “two lungs” of the Church.

Another ecumenical agenda. St. Mark of Ephesus did not agree with this false concept then and it still applies now.

Orthodox bishops have announced that Orthodox can receive the Eucharist in Roman Catholic Churches and vice versa under certain circumstances.

These "bishops" are not upholding the Orthodox faith. Since the Roman Catholics are considered heretics under true Orthodox dogma and theology, their "mysteries" are not bonded by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit does not work through heretical "mysteries".

I read about your Orthodox Patriarch, who, as the leader and spokesperson for all of Orthodoxy, participated in the Mass with our pope and how they exchanged the Kiss of Peace, which indicates full Eucharistic union. I have heard that joint prayers and Mass between Orthodox and Roman Catholics take place quite often.

This is a generalization. These "leaders" are of a specific group. There are Orthodox leaders that do not allow this. This "Orthodox Patriarach" does not speak for the Orthodox leaders that have seperated from him because of his view.

I have read about recent meetings between East and West dealing with the Filioque. My understanding is that they have essentially concluded that the uproar over the Filioque in the past was due to misunderstandings and they agreed that we all mean essentially the same thing whether we insert the Filioque or not.

The Filioque states that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. This is an heretical/false teaching. The Nicene Creed was written to establish the absolute truth of the Christian faith; it states that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and who with the Father and the Son, toghether is worshipped and glorified.

Actually, I'm amazed at how blatantly wrong the Catholics preach this as it is specifically taught by Christ in the Bible: John 15:26

"But, when the Helper comes, Whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of Truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me."

How can this passage be misunderstood?

(

I was glad to see that they have come to the same conclusions about the differences between the Orthodox and the Monophysites as well.)

The Monophysites believe in one nature of Christ. Again, the Nicene Creed establishes the belief of the worship of the two natures of Christ, by the holy fathers who were led by the Holy Spirit. They stated that Christ is the Son of God, the Only-Begotten, begotten of the Father before all ages, Light of Light, True God of True God, begotten not made; of one essence with the Father....Who for us men and our salvation came down from Heaven and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and became man....

If these "Orthodox" hierarchs want to be labelled as such, then they have to uphold the teachings of the holy fathers, otherwise, they. logically, don't fall under the catagory of Orthodox. If a Democrat voiced support for the Republican candidate, wouldn't you question his loyalties? It's as simple as that.

They are encouraging because I think it would be wonderful if we could just all be one and stop the bickering and divisions

Yes, it would be wonderful to all be one, but under the umbrella of the true faith, not compromise.

I really don’t want to leave my Roman Catholic parish.

Sounds like the decision has been made already. The question is, do you want to live in the true faith that Christ taught His disciples, to know the true God or do you want to make compromises and live with lies?

In view of all these recent developments and agreements, why should I leave the Roman Catholic Church to become Orthodox? It seems that we are practically one already and if our bishops can worship together and share the Kiss of Peace, and if our sacraments are all the same what really is the difference?

The difference is very real, concerning faith, but the politics of the hierarchs tends to blend everything and make it seem unimportant.

I recently talked with a Roman Catholic priest who was going through the same questions I was going through and was considering becoming Orthodox. He visited an Orthodox monastery in the Northeast and was amazed to find that they venerate Roman Catholic saints there and the monks told him there was no reason for him to leave the Roman Catholic Church to become Orthodox. I assume all of this is known and approved by their bishop.

This is not an Orthodox viewpoint. I'd like to know which monastery this is.

I am reading things that suggest that the fathers of the past were blinded by the culture of their day, a culture that was more barbaric and less loving. Our leaders today seem to have better insights into some of these issues than the saints of the past did.

I suggest that you read the lives of the Orthodox saints and their writings, instead of reading about them by non-Orthodox writers. You would be amazed by their lives.

My only concern here is this. If the saints, fathers, confessors and councils of the past acted out of ignorance, blindness, lovelessness or lack of understanding, where was the Holy Spirit guiding the Church in all of this?

How did you ever come to this conclusion? These saints had reached the state of theosis, a constant communion with God(meaning, living with the presence of the Holy Spirit) and therefore, thier souls were in contact with God's will. That's how they saw into peoples' souls and could say the exact thing that the person needed to hear. They brought men of great strength to tears...they humbled dignitaries. They loved their enemies, even when they were being tortured. Why would you think that they were ignorant, blind and loveless and lacking in understanding when they were in communion with God, every minute of the day?

Where was the Holy Spirit guiding the Church??

The Holy Spirit is always present, guiding the Church. God gave man free will and He taught man about the spiritual laws, through the Bible and the teachings of the holy fathers, but if the man, in his hierarchal position, refuses to humble himself to the Holy Spirit, then that's when all the mess hits the fan. He decided to follow his own will instead of God's. I'm talking about the hierarchs who don't follow the true teachings, not the saints.

And if the fathers were wrong concerning the Monophysites and Latins, how can we trust anything they taught? Maybe they were also wrong or in darkness about the Arians, the Iconoclasts, the dogmas of the Trinity, the Sacraments, the Church and even salvation itself. And if they were wrong and caused all these years of division and conflict needlessly, how can we still honor them as bearers of the Grace of God?

There is a distinction between the holy fathers and the hierarchy that made these messes. The saints didn't cause these divisions, the hierarchs who didn't follow God's will did.

Why should I leave the Roman Catholic Church to become Orthodox and how can we trust anything the Fathers taught if we now know they misunderstood many of these issues?

I hope my previous comments have answered these two questions.

Joanna

Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me. (Ps. 50)

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尼古拉前执事
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Post by 尼古拉前执事 »

joasia wrote:

I recently talked with a Roman Catholic priest who was going through the same questions I was going through and was considering becoming Orthodox. He visited an Orthodox monastery in the Northeast and was amazed to find that they venerate Roman Catholic saints there and the monks told him there was no reason for him to leave the Roman Catholic Church to become Orthodox. I assume all of this is known and approved by their bishop.

This is not an Orthodox viewpoint. I'd like to know which monastery this is.

It sounds like OCA's "New Skete".

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Jean-Serge
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This letter

Post by Jean-Serge »

In fact this letter is interesting because it reveals commun misunderstandings of Catholics interested in Orthodoxy dur to Orthodox ecumenists... I am going to submit it to an Orthodox ecumenist... to know what he will reply...

Priidite, poklonimsja i pripadem ko Hristu.

Joseph
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Post by Joseph »

Another Letter To An Orthodox Friend From A Seeker

Dear _____________,

Thanks for your quick reply to my last rambling letter and my questions. I’m leaving tomorrow on my trip but wanted to get this off before I left, hopefully to have a reply from you when I return

The comments from various ones in the chat group that you copied and shared with me are both helpful and hard to understand. If I understand them correctly, several seem to be saying that they don’t agree with what the Ecumenical Patriarch and others involved in Ecumenism are saying and doing. It even sounded as though they were saying that they consider many of the ecumenical statements and activities by ecumenical bishops to be un-Orthodox. Some of these comments seemed to say you should just ignore these bishops who are teaching contrary to the Orthodox Faith. It doesn’t seem to matter if you are in communion with bishops who say and teach and do things that are un-Orthodox. Maybe I’m misunderstanding them.

If what they are saying is true, I am wondering why I couldn’t just remain a Roman Catholic and say that I disagree with my bishop and even the pope, so long as I hold the Orthodox Faith in my own heart and if my priest is Orthodox. I could even say the Orthodox version of the Creed in my own heart during Mass and ignore what the bishops say or do. How would this be any different from them being in communion with bishops who call themselves Orthodox but teach contrary to the Orthodox Faith? It seems that I remember from my reading that some of the Orthodox fathers taught that even if your faith is true that you are still in error if you are in communion with others who are in heresy. Maybe I misunderstood but I think this is also what you have been telling me.

So if what some in the chat group are saying is true, my question remains. Why do I need to leave my Roman Catholic parish since it seems permissible to be in communion with those who hold false or un-Orthodox teachings so long as you don’t hold those teachings yourself?

Let’s plan a visit when I return.

Yours truly,


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