The Prayer of the Heart

[Unseen.Warfare]

If you look back at what I wrote, I never actually accused Elder Theodore of being a "false elder". I'm just not convinced that he was a confessor.

Secondly, I'm not viewing things "through the lens of the Matthewite situation in Greece". I'm Canadian.

Thirdly, I don't consider Archbishop Auxentius to be a valid bishop after he was deposed in 1985, and I don't consider any synod that was in communion with him after that point (like HOCNA) to be a canonical synod.

Fourthly, you mentioned that your Jurisdiction considers him a Holy Elder and a confessor, and that it doesn’t matter if I accept him or not. I would counter by saying that it doesn't matter if you accept him or not. There are plenty of True Orthodox saints in the twentieth century, and if I happen to miss one, it's not really a big deal. This is why we're supposed to wait a hundred years after someone reposes before we canonize them as a saint, because the closer we are to the time of their death, the more we tend to have disagreements over their sanctity, like the one you and I are having now.

"Whoa, Nelly!" Considering this is a thread called "Prayer of the Heart" in the "Document Library" forum and we're talking the 1985 Trial of Abp Auxentios among three or four other discussion landmines, I definitely feel like I am going to need to split posts here to keep the discussions relevant to the titles!

No need, conversations over from my point of view. We got our Tomos before the Show trial. Guy is just some Canadian who says he’s a Matthewite. Has given zero evidence that Elder Theodore wasn’t a True confessor. Just his personal “super correct” opinion that’s not correct at all.

[Barbara]

Yes this thread is getting greatly complex !

Responding to H. above from July 17, you are quite RIGHT. It's elder Sophrony for whom I really don't care, due to the strong World Orthodox association of the latter's skete in Essex.

In fact, I was the forum member who stumbled upon Elder Silouan's 80th anniversary on Sept 24, 2018.

I had been reading about Elder Silouan [because of this controversy, in fact] and suddenly realized he had reposed on that very day, Sept 24 ; thus 2018 was a big anniversary year for him. Here is the thread :
https://www.euphrosynoscafe.com/forum/v ... +24#p74016

Nobody else had noticed it, at least not here on our forum. A few outside sources did, but most people today in the West pay less attn to anniversaries of repose, it seems ? Anyone notice that ?!

Anyway, i just reread about Elder Silouan and I can't say exactly that I am against him. It's just that i don't see him as different from any other strict ascetic at St Panteleimon's on Mt Athos.


In the foreground, silver reliquary containing Elder Silouan's head at the
Church of the Intercession of Our Lady at St Panteleimon's Monastery, Mt Athos

I don't see any reason for Elder Silouan's glorification just because his disciple Sophrony moved to England and promoted his elder to the Western world ! I feel there were so many other Athonite monks who were very ascetic but didn't have that advantage to become well-known outside Mt Athos in the earlier years of the XX century.

[Barbara]

NOR SHOULD HE BE CANONIZED !
That would put whatever synod tried to do that in a very bad light, as there is no evidence for any extraordinary spiritual advancement.

Just hearsay of "miracles" which can occur anywhere among devoted followers of an elder. There are SO MANY Fakes out there that if all the "elders" who were proclaimed to be "clairvoyant" or "miracle-working" were to be glorified, it would make ALL the TOC jurisdictions and World Orthodox jurisdictions look completely flawed.

Clergy and flock with any degree of discernment would turn away from such irresponsible jurisdictions.

Thus, the better quality people would flee the bumbling jurisdictions.

It is not to anyone's benefit to have such a situation occur.
Better to be restrained and not even promote, let alone glorify, either false elders or elders who don't measure up to stringent examination.

We don't have any proof that Fr Sergius Irtel raised a child from the dead, for example.

Under the scrutiny which would inevitably occur, it would make any jurisdiction seeking to elevate him to sainthood look RIDICULOUS ~!

[Unseen.Warfare]

Barbara… We have living people who knew him who attest to the miracle. If that’s not good enough for you… I don’t know what to tell you. Do you question the miracles of all the Saints or just ones you don’t like? Why do you think ROCOR attempted to claim Elder Theodore… I’ll say this and leave it alone from this point on…You really should pray about this because I believe you are being lead astray and are scandalized over a truly Holy man. None of us should face Christ with a foul word about someone who raised a Child from the dead through the Grace of God. Make sure you know for certain you are correct about your theory. Ask God to reveal if Elder Theodore did the Miracle. You might get your answer.

I consider Fr. Seraphim Rose to be a Saint with a High level of Discerment. I don’t believe he would have mentioned him in the Orthodox Word and I don’t believe Platina would have put him in their book if he wasn’t a Holy man. This isn’t a “World Orthodox” elder you are talking about… This is a True Orthodox Elder who was close friends with St. John Maximovitch… You know what though… It’s pointless to argue with people on the internet about miracles. I don’t have a scholar to pull from to prove them.. So I guess it never happened… If that’s how we as Orthodox Christians are going to begin thinking… I guess Christ will Truly not find Faith on the earth when he returns. If i look “ridiculous” for trusting what I have been told directly by Vladyka John and many others so be it. I couldn’t careless truthfully.

I’ll end with this… Unless you’ve been revealed something by God… Why are you so certain?

[Lemon Schist]

@Unseen.Warfare

I ask this not to dispute anything that you have said, but because I have always been curious about the investigation that occurs prior to the canonization of a saint. Especially in light of the painful education I have had regarding false saints. Are the investigations publicly available? I have read that the Catholic church has some type of investigatory branch that looks into claims of miracles, does the Orthodox church have this, or is it up to a Synod to investigate?

[Barbara]

Unseen Warfare : it's good you are addressing this. I would have left it, but it's better to talk about it for the sake of clarity for any reader arriving here.

I WILL work on that to be 100 % sure, but I'm nearly certain that Fr Sergius Irtel was NOT anything like a Saint, nor did he perform miracles.

I am afraid he was more like a con-artist, to be honest, but let me verify that before asserting it.