The Saint Euphrosynos Cafe

This is a bit of an explicit one and I know that the fourth wall is going to have to be broken eventually for the sake of clear answers, but I'll try to be as appropriate as I possibly can while staying on topic. Here's the situation, I'm going to be 18 this February, I'm graduating this January and enrolling in college, I finally just got my license and I'm gaining some sense of independence that I never had before which I'm not quite used to, seeing as my mother had always been a bit overprotective with me.

Anyhow, now that I'm going to be interacting around females more often--or at least trying to if I ever wish to get married or at least overcome my social anxiety disorder, how far is too far when it comes to physical displays of affection? Getting a bit explicit, I'm a 100% virgin--I've never had sex or even kissed a female, danced with a female, or anything. How far are we allowed to go when it comes to physical displays of affection before marriage? Is there a general rule-of-thumb, IE "anything that arouses you" for example, or is it pastoral depending on what your spiritual father thinks you can handle, or are there specific rules? For example, is kissing allowed, is hugging? If yes to the former, is "making out" allowed? Where is the line drawn? Is mutual masturbation and/or oral allowed? Where does a person draw the line?

Personally, given my own admittance to extreme passion and frustration in the sexuality department, I think the less physical affection the better for me, otherwise I'd probably easily fall into fornication and then feel sad because I lost my sexual innocence. On the other hand, I don't want to remain a socially awkward penguin forever with absolutely no contact or physical interaction with females at all.

And on a similar note, does the Church allow marriage if the parties involved don't intend to have children? I'd seriously consider marriage, but being a father and having children is something that is very off-putting to me. Growing up, I was the oldest child, so I constantly had to take care of my younger siblings and I didn't enjoy it very much. The thought of going through that again for another 18 years saddens me. Yet, at the same time, I can't stay celibate forever. I simply can't do it. I can stomp out my passion for sexual immorality--which I've been doing through countless prostrations whenever I feel tempted--but I can't stay celibate forever. Having to take care of children for 18 years just to satisfy my natural urges seems harsh. I'd much rather help the homeless and poor than take care of children.

James,

I made a commitment to Christ never to date anyone outside of a church environment who was not a Christian. That commitment protected me. I met my future husband who was Christian in his heart, but who had never been baptized. He became a catechumen and was baptized just prior to our wedding.

When my handsome son was growing up, he was constantly being asked on dates by females. He refused them saying that he was already committed to a young lady, and indeed he was. At the very young age of 13, he had met a young lady at church who was just turning 13. He told me that he wanted to marry her when he grew up, and that he did. She kept him pure.

Single members of the True Orthodox Church are instructed not to kiss, fondle, pet, or engage in any activities with the opposite sex that could cause sin or arouse the passions.

The question, "How far is too far?" is an old one devised by the devil. When I was in 8th grade attending a Roman Catholic school, we had several boys in our class who were always asking that question hoping to tempt us. Finally, a Roman Catholic priest nailed them. He responded that every little sin can lead to a bigger sin. When dating a young lady, if a man has the attitude that he can control himself, he is fooling himself. Even the act of being alone with a woman is too tempting. The devil will subtly whisper in his ears, "No one can see; go ahead, she will like it." However, God sees, and our angels weep whenever we commit any sins. Furthermore, pure virginal women really appreciate a man who will treat them with respect and not put them in any danger.

Then ask yourself, if you go too far, will you be embarrassed to confess this sin of defiling a virgin and soiling your own soul? What if you get her pregnant?

On the other hand, you might find few virgins in this age. Then you will find people telling you not to be picky. If you have that problem, do ask several priests to help you find a virgin who is looking for a good man who is also a virgin.

There are some guidelines

1) Go to her father and ask if you can court his daughter before your first date.
2) Ask a relative to accompany you to events with your chosen.
3) Go to family events where people are around so that you can avoid any temptations.
4) Always go to public places; never go "parking" on some dark hillside; avoid dark theaters.

Thank you Maria, that was helpful. The part about kissing though grieved me; I really want to see what it feels like to kiss a woman. But, I guess it's better to stay pure. It's tough being a virgin in the world because everyone teases you. And I really want a wife badly, but it's so hard to find an Orthodox female. I keep praying and praying about it, only requesting two qualities in my wife; 1) she's very devout and faithfully Orthodox, won't hinder me from practicing my faith and in order to truly know her and possess her heart, I'll have to come to know God better, and 2) she's very attractive physically. These are the only two things I want in a woman. Everything else is negotiable.

I know this sounds weird, but, do you think it's immoral and/or a bad idea to consider an Orthodox mail order bride? This one old man at my parish told me that since I'm American and Orthodox, I could easily find a million potential Orthodox wives from Greece if I advertised myself to them. He said that they are so desperate to leave the country that I'd literally get dozens of calls and emails a day from interested women.

JamesR wrote:

Thank you Maria, that was helpful. The part about kissing though grieved me; I really want to see what it feels like to kiss a woman. But, I guess it's better to stay pure. It's tough being a virgin in the world because everyone teases you. And I really want a wife badly, but it's so hard to find an Orthodox female. I keep praying and praying about it, only requesting two qualities in my wife; 1) she's very devout and faithfully Orthodox, won't hinder me from practicing my faith and in order to truly know her and possess her heart, I'll have to come to know God better, and 2) she's very attractive physically. These are the only two things I want in a woman. Everything else is negotiable.

I know this sounds weird, but, do you think it's immoral and/or a bad idea to consider an Orthodox mail order bride? This one old man at my parish told me that since I'm American and Orthodox, I could easily find a million potential Orthodox wives from Greece if I advertised myself to them. He said that they are so desperate to leave the country that I'd literally get dozens of calls and emails a day from interested women.

It would be best to save your money, and then go on a pilgrimage to Greece. Visit some True Orthodox Churches and meet the priests there. That way you can meet girls, but beware, and only date those girls to whom you are properly introduced.

Well, we all know what you want in a wife.
What are you willing to give her?

Lydia wrote:

Well, we all know what you want in a wife.
What are you willing to give her?

Whatever money I can make with my 4 year bachelor's degree in English Composition that I am pursuing, all of the love and cherish-ment my heart can give, my best attempt to satisfy and give her what she wants in the marriage bed, and a heretical although extremely close knit lower middle-class Mexican family that would try to do all it can to help us and make her feel comfortable as a new part of our family.

JamesR wrote:

Lydia wrote:

Well, we all know what you want in a wife.
What are you willing to give her?

Whatever money I can make with my 4 year bachelor's degree in English Composition that I am pursuing, all of the love and cherish-ment my heart can give, my best attempt to satisfy and give her what she wants in the marriage bed, and a heretical although extremely close knit lower middle-class Mexican family that would try to do all it can to help us and make her feel comfortable as a new part of our family.

Have you discussed your options with a school counselor? There is a glut of teachers in California.

I was contemplating a degree in English literature and composition, but when I saw the reading list, I was appalled. If you are trying to remain pure, yet must read all the suggestive novels mandated on the course reading list, it will be very difficult as the class discussions are far from modest. Trust me. I have talked with young men who are trying to obtain a major where they will not be tempted. Here is a list of their suggestions:

The sciences: chemistry, physics, physical geography, earth science, mathematics

The humanities: World history, American history, Russian history, linguistics, philosophy

Incidentally, linguistics, physics, anatomy, audiology, and advanced mathematics go together nicely.