The Saint Euphrosynos Cafe

We need to all try to maintain a Christian and civil tone here.

[quote="Pravoslavnik"Cyprian, I think that we all have ample evidence from our longstanding Euphrosynos Cafe debates that you are not a man to be taken very seriously. I have appreciated your references to some of the Patristic literature, but you routinely misquote people, and you routinely misinterpret complex historical and scientific issues."

Amen to that

Pravoslavnik wrote:

Ian,

...opposing attempts by our government to provide health insurance to the millions of Americans who have had no health insurance?

2 Thessalonians 2:10:

For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.

Is there an patristic gloss, that I'm unaware of, to the effect that "but he should have health insurance"?

Father Seraphim Rose: His Life and Works, p. 139:

In discussing the nature of modernism, Eugene also wished to judge, according to Orthodox Christian teaching, three worldly "idols" of the modern age. The first he called the "cult of civilization." Having outlined several aspects of this idol, he indicated how Christians can succumb to it by making their service to "humanity" an end in itself; and he contrasted this with reflections on the nature of true Christian charity. A Christian responds to an immediate human need out of love, in the name of Christ; but when he begins to think, "If it is good to feed one hungry man, it is much better to feed a thousand--one is a drop in the bucket," then he begins to make of Christianity a system, to reduce it to an ideology. Recalling Christ's words Ye have the poor always with you (Matt. 26:11), Eugene wrote: "Christ did not come to feed the hungry, but to save the souls of all, hungry or replete."2

2 Quoted in ER, "Christian Realism and Worldy Idealism," p. 139.

To me, the modern welfare-state is essentially what the Grand Inquisitor of Dostoyevsky had in mind:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/commen ... 052537.ece

Already we have what the tabloid newspapers call an epidemic of single motherhood — young women who have chosen to have babies on welfare, without husbands or boyfriends. One in four mothers is single and more than half of these lone mothers have never lived with a man and survive on welfare.

As many of these women become grandmothers, a new pattern has emerged of three generations of mothers without a man in the house — lone granny, lone mum and fatherless children, all expecting the state to stand in for daddy, as of right. These women are not so much welfare queens as matriarchal dynasties of welfare Amazons.

In a study presented to the Centre for Policy Studies (CPS), the sociologist Geoff Dench argues from the evidence of British Social Attitudes surveys since 1983 that there is a growing number of such extended man-free families: “Three-generation lone-mother families — extended families without men — are developing a new family subculture which involves little paid work.”

Ian,

Perhaps it would be more fitting to have a separate thread on the subject of Christian ethics and the modern welfare state. It is interesting that you quote Dostoevsky here, because I am currently reading his magnificent novel Demons (variously translated as The Possessed, and Devils (Bezdomi?)) It is an Orthodox critique of European "liberalism" and its corrosive effect on traditional Russian Orthodox society in the 19th century. Like Dostoevsky, I have a deep antipathy toward modern, anti-Christianity-- found primarily in "liberal" American circles.

Conversely, the central point that I was trying to make about the modern American Republican Party is that--despite its "Christian" Evangelical trappings-- it is primarily focused on greed and militarism, cutting taxes for the wealthiest Americans, and using military power to control the world's remaining oil reserves-- about 80% of which currently lie in the Persian Gulf. And what un-Godly arrogance amongst right wing Republicans about dropping bombs on others in ventures like "Shock and Awe," or George W. Bush  saying, "Bring them on!" in March of 2003-- a statement which Bush later regretted saying.  Our bombing of Serbia under the opportunist Bill Clinton was also abominable.

  So, I am, perhaps, a man without a "political" country-- comfortable with neither anti-Christian American liberals nor with hateful, militant, greedy Republicans who pass for "Christians" in America today.

  I am also highly suspicious of the knee-jerk anti-Obama sentiment prevalent among so many contemporary American racists-- nominally Christian or heathen. Let us not pretend that there is anything Christian about this longstanding sin of racism, slavery, and oppression of African Americans in American history.  Hence, public hostility to Obama that is not predicated on honest, accurate interpretations of his statements, policy positions and decisions, should be challenged and put in its proper context.  His misinterpreted comments about John Boehner and "Armageddon" on this thread are a good example.

  As St. John the Theologian stated in his epistle.  "God is love...."  "If a man hates his brother, how can the love of God be in him?"  That is why I stated above that the Republicans-- many seething with hatred and contempt for humanity-- are 0-2 when it comes to fulfilling the two principle commandments of Christ God.  Such men, if nominal "Christians" like some modern Republicans, are a mere sounding brass, or a tinkling symbol, lacking love for all of our race, which was created in the image and likeness of God.

Pravoslavnik wrote:

I am also highly suspicious of the knee-jerk anti-Obama sentiment prevalent among so many contemporary American racists-- nominally Christian or heathen. Let us not pretend that there is anything Christian about this longstanding sin of racism, slavery, and oppression of African Americans in American history. Hence, public hostility to Obama that is not predicated on honest, accurate interpretations of his statements, policy positions and decisions, should be challenged and put in its proper context. His misinterpreted comments about John Boehner and "Armageddon" on this thread are a good example.

Taken with his other "jokes" (see below), I doubt I'm misinterpreting his comments. God has struck men dead instantly for lesser things, Herod in book of Acts for example:

Revelation 13:5-6:

The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise his authority for forty-two months. He opened his mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven.

April 20, 2007:
http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2007/04 ... ts_humble/

When Morgan Freeman comes over to greet Obama, the senator begins bowing down both hands in worship. "This guy was president before I was," says Obama, referring to Freeman's turn in Deep Impact and, clearly, getting a little ahead of his own bio. Next, a nod to Bruce Almighty: "This guy was God before I was."

April 1st, 2010:

So after I signed the bill, I looked up to see if there were any asteroids headed our way. I checked to see if any cracks had opened up in the ground.

Revelation 8:5:

Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and hurled it on the earth; and there came peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning and an earthquake.

Sunday, April 4th, 7.2 magnitude earthquake in California, the "Easter Earthquake" (Pascha and Western Easter on same day).
Was the 15 min. giant fireball over the Midwest, accompanied by "peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning" the censer itself?
http://edition.cnn.com/2010/TECH/04/15/ ... .fireball/

First Trumpet?

April 14th, Iceland volcano Eyjafjallajokull erupts disrupting air traffic:
As of May 10th, still erupting:
http://en.vedur.is/earthquakes-and-volc ... es/nr/1884

The crater is getting higher. Lava flow is low and not visible on cameras. In the afternoon there was a slight increase in explosive activity, which resulted in a higher plume for a while.
Seismic tremor has been similar for the past 3 days. A sequence of earthquakes started around 11:00 this morning at depths of 18 - 20 km and magnitude range 1 - 2. The earthquake sequence this morning indicates that magma is still flowing in from the mantle. Presently there are no indications that the eruption is about to end.

And could trigger its sister Katla, 10 time mores powerful:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/travel ... 120697.ece

The map shows how the volcano’s tubes plunge deep down through the earth’s crust to the start of the mantle, which is made of semi-molten rock. It reveals the huge scale of the eruption and the potential for a far greater one.

This is because the magma chamber of Eyjafjallajokull is dwarfed by the much larger one under Katla, a volcano 15 miles to the east. Two of Katla’s eruptions, in 1612 and 1821, are thought to have been triggered by those of its neighbour.
The workings of the volcanoes have been provisionally drawn up by Professor Erik Sturkell, a geologist at the Nordic Volcanological Centre, University of Iceland.

Sturkell suggests the Eyjafjallajokull eruption has been building since 1994, when new lava began rising, forming two reservoirs three miles beneath the volcano. They now feed into a much larger magma chamber a mile under the crater.
A surge of earthquakes under Katla mean it has experienced a similar influx of lava, Sturkell said. “This suggests the volcano is close to failure [eruption]. ”

To see what a volcano can do, 1816: The Year Without a Summer:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_Without_a_Summer

Revelation 8:7:

The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

Second Trumpet?

April 20th, Deep Horizon oil rig explodes and sinks into the sea:

Revelation 8:8-9:

The second angel sounded his trumpet, and something like a huge mountain, all ablaze, was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea turned into blood, a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed.

Burning oil rig = "something like a huge mountain, all ablaze"? The sea looks like blood, see video ("...a red mass of floating goo.. The Gulf appears to be bleeding.").

Conclusion:

If Obama isn't THE Antichrist, he is certainly an antichrist, a wannabe going out of his way to take on the Antichrist's titles and attributes, and this stuff could be a small scale, multiple fulfillment type deal (Nero).

Ian,

With all due respect, your "Armageddon" theory here needs some work. For example the "fireball" in the sky over the Quad Cities-- which you describe as a possible fulfillment of the Apocalypse prophecy regarding a smoldering censor descending to earth prior to a great earthquake-- appeared on April 24, 2010, about three weeks AFTER the earthquake you referenced.

As for the Deepwater Horizon oil rig as the "fiery mountain" of The Apocalypse?  It's a stretch.

Your two allegedly "blasphemous" Obama quotes were both taken entirely out of context. One was a reference to Republican John Boehner's somewhat blasphemous comments about health care reform for America presaging "Armageddon" (which were somewhat reminiscent of Ronald Reagan's famous phonograph records in the 1960s which decried the looming evils of Medicare.) Your other Obama quote was intended as a humorous reference to Morgan Freeman having played the role of "God" in a comical movie.

 That said, we had a very lengthy discussion here at the St. Euphrosynos Cafe beginning in April of 2008 about various Orthodox prophecies and teachings on the subject of the Antichrist in relation to then-Senator Barak Obama.  It was entitled, "[b][i]Is Barak Obama the Antichrist?[/i][/b]"  I raised this as a serious question two years ago, and I still consider it a serious question, though I do not presume to know the answer.

  You will be somewhat relieved to know that-- in our previous (2008) St. Euphrosynos Cafe discussion on this subject-- Cyprian asserted quite emphatically that then-Senator Barak Obama could not possibly be the Antichrist, and that it was absurd for me to even raise the question.  Someone else opined that Obama could not possibly be the Antichrist because he did not have the charisma and popularity to be a world leader. 

  I continue to ponder the subject, but tend to think about it less geologically than you do.  If earthquakes are the harbinger of the Antichrist, has there been a single decade in the past two thousand years where they were not thought to be portents of his imminent appearance?

Pravoslavnik wrote:

With all due respect, your "Armageddon" theory here needs some work. For example the "fireball" in the sky over the Quad Cities-- which you describe as a possible fulfillment of the Apocalypse prophecy regarding a smoldering censor descending to earth prior to a great earthquake-- appeared on April 24, 2010, about three weeks AFTER the earthquake you referenced.

The fireball over the Midwest was April 14, 2010 (the CNN webpage was merely updated on the 24th to say that it was seen in Ohio also). If you are throwing something from Heaven, say on April 1st or the 4th ("Easter Earthquake"), it presumably takes awhile to get to Earth, which it does in time for the transition to the possible First Trumpet event, Iceland volcano.

http://www.sierravisionsstock.com/sierr ... st-meteor/

Look at the size of that thing, it covers entire local counties on the Doppler Radar map, yet it eventually splits into smaller pieces and does no damage, just as the censer event goes without any described damage.

Pravoslavnik wrote:

As for the Deepwater Horizon oil rig as the "fiery mountain" of The Apocalypse? It's a stretch.

The verse doesn't say "fiery mountain" it says "something like." Revelation is a vision described by a 1st century man:

http://edition.cnn.com/video/?/video/us ... .video.cnn

I send a pestilence and plague
Into your house, into your bed
Into your streams, into your streets
Into your drink, into your bread
Upon your cattle, on your sheep
Upon your oxen in your field
Into your dreams, into your sleep
Until you break, until you yield
I send the swarm, I send the horde
Thus saith the Lord

I send the thunder from the sky
I send the fire raining down
I send a hail of burning ice
On every field, on every town

I send the locusts on a wind
Such as the world has never seen
On every leaf, on every stalk
Until there's nothing left of green
I send my scourge, I send my sword
Thus saith the Lord!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/scie ... tists.html

Published: 11:00AM GMT 27 Mar 2010

Researchers believe they have found evidence of real natural disasters on which the ten plagues of Egypt, which led to Moses freeing the Israelites from slavery in the Book of Exodus in the Bible, were based.

But rather than explaining them as the wrathful act of a vengeful God, the scientists claim the plagues can be attributed to a chain of natural phenomena triggered by changes in the climate and environmental disasters that happened hundreds of miles away.

They have compiled compelling evidence that offers new explanations for the Biblical plagues, which will be outlined in a new series to be broadcast on the National Geographical Channel on Easter Sunday .