WWOC-why people is staying in wourld "ortodoxy"

Incognito1583 · Post by **Incognito1583** » Mon 25 August 2008 4:49 am

Joasia, no you all do not know where the Orthodox Church is. You believe and feel you know where it is. I can ask two or three Orthodox people where it is, and walk away with two or three different answers. Sure, Orthodoxy is the one holy Catholic and apostolic Church. But where is it? None of you really know. People talk about how Orthodoxy is one. I submit this is a delusion. There are many Orthodoxies in the world today. We are anything but one. Even the old calendarists are totally divided. I am going to join the Kiousis Synod because I believe it has valid apostolic succession and grace. But in my experience it is difficult to know where true Orthodoxy is because men destroyed the Orthodox Church, in the sense of dividing it.

Incognito1583 · Post by **Incognito1583** » Mon 25 August 2008 4:56 am

If we had obedience to Christ and the laws of the Church, love for our fellow man, humility and commitment to Christ and the Church, we would be one united Church today. The problem is that the Mason's started this problem. And today there are just too many disobedient and prideful people. They want to have everything their own way and they refuse to be humble and obedient to the next Orthodox bishop or priest. There are too many opinions. People today do not love unity. They have too much pride, ego and disobedience. But God is in control. Everything will work out.

The Roman Catholic religion and Protestantism are far, far worse.

Varsanufios · Post by **Varsanufios** » Tue 26 August 2008 10:47 am

Incognito1583 wrote:
If we had obedience to Christ and the laws of the Church, love for our fellow man, humility and commitment to Christ and the Church, we would be one united Church today. The problem is that the Mason's started this problem. And today there are just too many disobedient and prideful people. They want to have everything their own way and they refuse to be humble and obedient to the next Orthodox bishop or priest. There are too many opinions. People today do not love unity. They have too much pride, ego and disobedience. But God is in control. Everything will work out.

The Roman Catholic religion and Protestantism are far, far worse.

Yes but people belevers of world orthodox churces are not agree with this constatation.They say that is because True Orthodox Churces are shismatic.

Joanna Higginbotham · Tue 26 August 2008 8:16 pm

Dear Incognito,

I can tell this is troubling you. You admit to having no luck getting an answer to your question by asking people. Try asking God. You seem to keep trying to see with your own eyes. It may be that you need "new" eyes, and only God can provide new eyes.

My patron, St. John Maximovitch, was clairvoyant and he could see where grace is and where it is not. In fact, he went looking for it, and delighted wherever he found it. The people you have been asking do not have such spiritual sight, they do not know even for all their insisting that they do know.

St. John was loyal to ROCOR. Obviously he saw grace in ROCOR. But he found Grace elsewhere as well. One of St. John's parishes in France was on the new calendar (Blessed Philaret did not approve of it). Would such an Archbishop have allowed his flock to use the new calendar, if this prevented his sheep from receiving the grace of the Sacraments?

So, see? God's Grace can not be figured out or made subject to canons. It is where it is. And it is not where it is not. And without spiritual sight, we can only know where it is and then, only if and when we are given to perceive it.

The real question here seems to be, where does God want you (which jurisdiction or which Church), what is His will for you? And not who has or has not grace, and even more obnoxious, who SAYS who has or has not grace. I will pray for you. -Joanna

Incognito1583 · Post by **Incognito1583** » Wed 27 August 2008 2:39 am

People don't decide where grace is. The Church is not based on men. It is based on doctrines and tradition. I believe there is an excessive Elder/gurism mentality and supersition today where people use the subjective insinuations or opinions of men. But do these individual men really have the authority from Christ to decide these issues? It sounds more and more like protestantism. This is not the method Christ established for the Church. Saint John was not infallible. Metropolitan Philaret is also incorrupt, and he denied the MP had grace. How do you reconcile this contradiction? And the situation today is worse then it was when Saint John was here.

And how do you know I haven't asked God?

Incognito1583 · Post by **Incognito1583** » Wed 27 August 2008 2:42 am

Joanna Higginbotham wrote:
The real question here seems to be, where does God want you (which jurisdiction or which Church), what is His will for you? And not who has or has not grace, and even more obnoxious, who SAYS who has or has not grace. I will pray for you. -Joanna

God wants me where grace and the Church is. His will would not want me in a graceless church. Your argument is reminiscent of evangelical protestantism where they just go where they feel the most entertained.

Joanna Higginbotham · Wed 27 August 2008 1:31 pm

Yes, that is true. But He will be the one to determine where grace is and not you. You don't have your new eyes yet.

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