The Saint Euphrosynos Cafe

It's not only a sin, but the Bible says it's demonic in origin.

"And the fifth demon is he who showed the children of men the smiting of the embryo in the womb, so that it might die."-Enoch 69:12.

My problem is though I don't think I can support making abortion illegal. All laws are upheld by the barrel of a gun. I'm not going to support forcing some dumb 12 year old girl who had got raped by her stepfather into having her child or else die or go to prison. That doesn't seem Christian.

No offense, but all of the rampant anti-abortion stuff seems to me like another way that wealthy, White American Protestants are trying to interfere and Jim Crow us Mexicans like they did with the "War on Drugs."

I'd rather eliminate abortion through preventative measures. Stop people from getting pregnant before they want children and then fund social programs to support single and/or impoverished mothers and end the social stigma on single and/or unmarried parents and fatherless kid children like myself.

To bear our cross and teach others the same is Christian.

To tell a girl it is better to kill her child than to bear her cross is not Christian.

How do you know that child will not be the best thing that ever happened to her? How do know that child will not be that girls salvation?

arcmode wrote:

To bear our cross and teach others the same is Christian.

It indeed is.

To tell a girl it is better to kill her child than to bear her cross is not Christian.

I never said I'd tell a girl it's better to kill her child than bear her Cross. That's a strawman. I simply said that I am unwilling to use legal compulsion to force a girl to bear her Cross because all laws are upheld by the barrel of a gun. If you break the law, you get fined or arrested, in both cases, an armed person apprehends you, and if you resist, you are shot. Are you willing to use this type of compulsion to force a child into "bearing her Cross"? I'm not. I think that there are better ways to help a person than by using compulsion.

How do you know that child will not be the best thing that ever happened to her? How do know that child will not be that girls salvation?

It certainly wasn't the case with my mom when she had me at 15; I stopped her from ever going to college and making something of her life, and she's still a heretic.

JamesR wrote:

It's not only a sin, but the Bible says it's demonic in origin.

"And the fifth demon is he who showed the children of men the smiting of the embryo in the womb, so that it might die."-Enoch 69:12.

My problem is though I don't think I can support making abortion illegal. All laws are upheld by the barrel of a gun. I'm not going to support forcing some dumb 12 year old girl who had got raped by her stepfather into having her child or else die or go to prison. That doesn't seem Christian.

No offense, but all of the rampant anti-abortion stuff seems to me like another way that wealthy, White American Protestants are trying to interfere and Jim Crow us Mexicans like they did with the "War on Drugs."

I'd rather eliminate abortion through preventative measures. Stop people from getting pregnant before they want children and then fund social programs to support single and/or impoverished mothers and end the social stigma on single and/or unmarried parents and fatherless kid children like myself.

Dear James,

Is it just that abortion is a demonic murder, and at the same time allowable by law. This is an example of a hard case, which is used to make all murder of unborn children legal.

Does any woman go to prison for killing her unborn baby? I have not heard of any such case.

In allowing nature to take its course, a child will be born into the world. That child is made in the image of God. Killing this child would be killing God’s Image. The child and the girl are innocent here, but both are being punished, the former with a terrible death, the latter with the trauma of going through the horror and the guilt of abortion and of grieving for the rest of her life the loss of the only person who might ever love her. The child is the only good thing to come out of this terrible situation.

It certainly wasn't the case with my mom when she had me at 15; I stopped her from ever going to college and making something of her life, and she's still a heretic.

And if she hadn’t had you (thank God she did) the world would not have been as good as it is. College is nothing in comparison of holding your child in your arms, even for a heretic. Do you think that all hope for her lost just because she didn’t go to college? No, she gave you birth and scripture says that woman’s salvation is in bearing children. The opposite can be said for aborting them.

Are you willing to use this type of compulsion to force a child into "bearing her Cross"? I'm not.

Are you willing to carry out an abortion? I'm not. The only option is to outlaw the practice.

To answer you question, yes, I would be happy to arrest abortionists at gunpoint. Any distress suffered by any one else would be worth it.

Why are children of rape less important than just children of irresponsibility or something? Once a child is conceived, it's too late to consider any one else's desires, that unborn child is now the most vulnerable member of what ever family it is soon to join, to let someone kill it so you don't have to feel bad about needing a gun to save it is just transferring the punishment onto the one with no voice and the punishment is death.

There is no 'solution' to sin and evil James. There is no way to organised or arrange things so that no one is ever scared or hurt or wronged. We can only minimize the damage and love as much as we can.

When you have known some one who has lived with this sin, you will understand better why it must be made a crime and kept that way.

[Retracted for Rudeness]

Look, I see what you are saying with abortion being bad and all, and having compassion on the innocent infant involved. And I'm not disagreeing with that. Abortion is inherently evil. But what I'm saying is that I don't think a legal ban on abortion is the best thing to do, first, because it implies the use of force and violence if necessary--something I am opposed to in most cases, and second, because prohibition has never worked in the past. Take the War on Drugs and Prohibition of the roaring 20s as an example. Likewise, you are probably right that until I've met a woman who's had one, I probably don't understand the affects of abortion--which I imagine are horrible. But I'd also tell you that until you've had half your nation stolen from you in an imperialistic war, been Jim Crow'd, and been segregated by the same exact people who are trying to tell your community about what it can & cannot do in regards to abortion, I don't think you will fully understand. Until you've lived in a Latin neighborhood where most girls get pregnant between the age of 12-16, often due to not having a strong father figure in their life or being abused/molested growing up, I don't think you will fully understand this either.

JamesR wrote:

[Retracted for Rudeness]

Look, I see what you are saying with abortion being bad and all, and having compassion on the innocent infant involved. And I'm not disagreeing with that. Abortion is inherently evil. But what I'm saying is that I don't think a legal ban on abortion is the best thing to do, first, because it implies the use of force and violence if necessary--something I am opposed to in most cases, and second, because prohibition has never worked in the past. Take the War on Drugs and Prohibition of the roaring 20s as an example. Likewise, you are probably right that until I've met a woman who's had one, I probably don't understand the affects of abortion--which I imagine are horrible. But I'd also tell you that until you've had half your nation stolen from you in an imperialistic war, been Jim Crow'd, and been segregated by the same exact people who are trying to tell your community about what it can & cannot do in regards to abortion, I don't think you will fully understand. Until you've lived in a Latin neighborhood where most girls get pregnant between the age of 12-16, often due to not having a strong father figure in their life or being abused/molested growing up, I don't think you will fully understand this either.

Dear James,

Please understand that covering up a sin of incest (which is quite common), underage rape, or fornication by committing the horrible sin of abortion cries to heaven for vengeance. We have no right to take the life of an innocent child.

There is a book that is mandated for most English majors who intend to teach in high school: The Freedom Writers Diary: How a Teacher and 150 Teens Used Writing to Change Themselves and the World Around Them, The Freedom Writers with Erin Gruwell, Broadway Books: NY, 1999. This book tells the story of mostly Hispanic teens. Almost every true story is guaranteed to produce copious tears, yet these stories also give us hope in our resilient youth.

It is imperative that churches and parents work together to help protect our teens. In this age, when many parents are taking in their children's families due to unemployment and financial reasons, uncles (ages 12 to 25) find themselves living with their nieces who are so very vulnerable because they trust their young uncles as brothers and then find themselves being raped by them. Because these young girls do not want to be homeless (their only other option), they keep this ugly secret so as to not bring shame to their family. Lord have mercy.

To encourage or force these girls to undergo an abortion would only compound the trauma. Instead, we need more homes for unwed mothers and their families, so that they can break this cycle of poverty and live far away from their molesting uncles.