The Saint Euphrosynos Cafe

jgress wrote:

In general, usury is a sin, as the canons above make clear. My understanding is that this certainly goes for private loans, which you should never charge interest for. If you have a bank account and earn interest, or if you work for a bank, I think that the rule is not held to apply; at least, I've never heard even a True Orthodox jurisdiction forbidding its flock from holding bank accounts. That's all I know about it.

How does this apply for Real Estate Loan agents? Orthodox Christians should really not be in that business.

If possible, we should purchase our homes with our savings and not take out a loan.

I'm reading the commentaries and notes on the canons, and it appears that charging interest was legal in some circumstances in the Christian Roman Empire. I will look further into this, but for now I would probably approach the matter in the following way: are you charging interest on behalf of yourself, or on behalf of your business? Banks accept deposits in order to lend them to others who have immediate need of cash and who are prepared to repay the loan when they have profited from it. Like any business, banks can charge a price for their services, and that's what the interest rate is about.

In Apostolic times, Christians "had all things in common". I think in principle we should give away freely of our possessions, and not charging interest is just part of that; we also should not even expect a repayment of the principal. But society as a whole only functions if property rights are respected, and while we are always free to give away our personal property, we have no right to expect others to give us anything for free, but we should expect to pay for it.

jgress wrote:

In general, usury is a sin, as the canons above make clear. My understanding is that this certainly goes for private loans, which you should never charge interest for. If you have a bank account and earn interest, or if you work for a bank, I think that the rule is not held to apply; at least, I've never heard even a True Orthodox jurisdiction forbidding its flock from holding bank accounts. That's all I know about it.

Jgress,

That is just common sense. If we start, nowadays, to refuse to hold a bank account, where we would end up, then? We would not be able to work anywhere - this for who have a job – nor to be able get any social security benefit [dole] either from the government, because as the economical system of the day is that everybody has to have a bank account – no bank account, you are out in the cold.
Nadir

NadirGP wrote:

jgress wrote:

In general, usury is a sin, as the canons above make clear. My understanding is that this certainly goes for private loans, which you should never charge interest for. If you have a bank account and earn interest, or if you work for a bank, I think that the rule is not held to apply; at least, I've never heard even a True Orthodox jurisdiction forbidding its flock from holding bank accounts. That's all I know about it.

Jgress,

That is just common sense. If we start, nowadays, to refuse to hold a bank account, where we would end up, then? We would not be able to work anywhere - this for who have a job – nor to be able get any social security benefit [dole] either from the government, because as the economical system of the day is that everybody has to have a bank account – no bank account, you are out in the cold.
Nadir

Sounds like the mark of the beast. One must have a bank account under Obama Care so that the medical provider can do a direct debit on a person's account. That is going to be rough. If a doctor decides to debit a person's account $2000.00 when one only has $200.00, then that person will have no money left for food or heating bills.

NadirGP wrote:

Antonios wrote:

Nadir,

Since you have given a number of good biblical examples for a good start I'll quote Shakespeare's Polonius instead -

"Neither a borrower nor a lender be; For loan oft loses both itself and friend"

I think we've all seen parishes that have gotten too big for their britches, so to speak, and lured into borrowing money for the new church building or that parish hall they "really need". From what I've seen, it usually ends up poorly for them.

Also, I have a very good friend who is quite well to do and has often given loans, at no interest, to people who have come begging to him. Too often they simply walk away from it refusing to repay their debt. I don't think there is any need to elaborate on the personal or spiritual repercussions of this ugliness.

Not exactly canons, I know. But, I hope it's helpful and adds to your thread at some level.

-Antonios

Antonios,

I welcome your good sentiments on this “ugly” matter. However, that is not a good reason; I should not talk about it. For example, murdering babes, namely abortions, it is more than just ugliness – it is a great SIN before the Almighty God. So should not we talk about it?

Nadir

Nadir,

I did not mean to imply that this subject should be taboo. I simply meant to say that there is probably no need for commentary regarding the example I gave.

Cheers,
Antonios

Nadir,

I did not mean to imply that this subject should be taboo. I simply meant to say that there is probably no need for commentary regarding the example I gave.

Cheers,
Antonio

Antonio,

Sorry, I really apologise for misreading your writing.

Oh Lord, have mercy on me …a sinner

Nadir

jgress wrote:

I'm reading the commentaries and notes on the canons, and it appears that charging interest was legal in some circumstances in the Christian Roman Empire. I will look further into this, but for now I would probably approach the matter in the following way: are you charging interest on behalf of yourself, or on behalf of your business? Banks accept deposits in order to lend them to others who have immediate need of cash and who are prepared to repay the loan when they have profited from it. Like any business, banks can charge a price for their services, and that's what the interest rate is about.

In Apostolic times, Christians "had all things in common". I think in principle we should give away freely of our possessions, and not charging interest is just part of that; we also should not even expect a repayment of the principal. But society as a whole only functions if property rights are respected, and while we are always free to give away our personal property, we have no right to expect others to give us anything for free, but we should expect to pay for it.

jgress,

By any chance, have you read the book, “Usury in Christendom," by Michael Hoffman? Hoffman is the author of Usury in Christendom: The Mortal Sin that Was and Now is Not.

From this root of evil comes the template for revolutionary change by which God’s other Laws and statutes have been gradually derogated and then overthrown by the Renaissance and post-Renaissance Church. [Extract from M.H. book.]

Nadir