Incognito,
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I am curious. Do you perceive any of the characteristics you attribute to the Church hierarchs in your own father or stepfather? Was he perchance a liar? A hypocrite? A whitewashed sepulchre who did not trust or honor your mother?Pravoslavnik wrote:Incognito,
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I am curious. Do you perceive any of the characteristics you attribute to the Church hierarchs in your own father or stepfather?[/quote]No, I attribute these characteristics to them based on what I have observed from them.
Pravoslavnik wrote:Was he perchance a liar?
That could be argued.
Pravoslavnik wrote:A hypocrite?
Perhaps
Pravoslavnik wrote:A whitewashed sepulchre
No, because he never claimed to be religious.
Pravoslavnik wrote:who did not trust or honor your mother?
I think he trusted her. I don't know about the honoring part.
An example of pride, disobedience, and Russian ethnocentric bias, comes from an experience I had many years ago. A Russian woman was arguing with a priest because she wanted the services to be in Russian. He wanted them in English. She was being disobedient. There is little obedience today. People always have to have it their own way. This pride and disobedience, is the basis for all the confusion we see in contemporary Orthodoxy. People only think of themselves.
Inco,
I know someone who also puts an extreme measure about obedience. From observation, I started to see that his fanatical judgement about obedience led him further away from the truth. And he judges people, including myself, on the basis of how obedient we are to our hierarch.
I'm not saying that obedience is wrong. But, for those who lack discernment, as he does(and I suspect you do), they choose to be obedient to the wrong people. He wanted to be obedient to everybody that were false in their Orthdox faith and he opposed everybody that were true to It. He even left Orthodoxy for awhile. He was a convert, from Protestant.
He measures everything with obedience but then cannot be obedient to Orthodox traditon, himself.
Your example of the Russian woman is unfair. Why shouldn't she hear the service in Russian? We don't know the woman or the priest you are talking about.
You present arguements as if they are straight forward. They are not. It's the same arguement ecumenists have against laity that don't want to accept a one world religion of worship. They accuse them of being disobedient to the Church. They accuse them of being stoic and not accepting the path of progress with unions of other faiths. They accuse them of being heretics.
Your view is very biased. Your reasoning is immature and greatly lacking in discernment.
Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me. (Ps. 50)
joasia wrote:Inco,
I know someone who also puts an extreme measure about obedience. From observation, I started to see that his fanatical judgement about obedience led him further away from the truth. And he judges people, including myself, on the basis of how obedient we are to our hierarch.
Once a person has found a spiritual father, he or she must be 100% obedient in everything except heresy or sexual immorality. Read the Evergetinos on obedience. The reason there are no saints today, is because there is little obedience. Obedience is the greatest of all monastic virtues.
joasia wrote:I'm not saying that obedience is wrong. But, for those who lack discernment, as he does(and I suspect you do), they choose to be obedient to the wrong people.
It is not our place to judge our spiritual fathers. I believe there is a story in the Evergetinos of a elder (spiritual father) who was unfit to guide souls. But he had a disciple who who honored him and was completely obedient and humble. The elder saw this and became remorseful for how he treated the monk. The obedience of the monk brought his elder to remorse and reform of his ways.
There is a spiritual principle that says the more we esteem our spiritual father, the more God will work through him for our own spiritual benefit. The spiritual father must be obeyed and honored as if he were Christ Himself. This is the teaching of all the desert Fathers. It's not about me and my discernment (or lack thereof), but on what the Fathers and saints have historically taught.
joasia wrote:He wanted to be obedient to everybody that were false in their Orthdox faith and he opposed everybody that were true to It. He even left Orthodoxy for awhile. He was a convert, from Protestant.
The Fathers do not expect us to be obedient to heretics.
joasia wrote:Your example of the Russian woman is unfair. Why shouldn't she hear the service in Russian? We don't know the woman or the priest you are talking about.
Because everyone (or most) of the people in the parish understood English, but only a few understood Russian. The mission of Orthodoxy is to convert and spiritually feed the nations, not appease our own ethnic sentiments. Neither you nor the Russian woman have any right to disobey your priest. It is not our job to analyze what he orders. Even if a priest is wrong, he should still be obeyed.
joasia wrote:You present arguements as if they are straight forward. They are not. It's the same arguement ecumenists have against laity that don't want to accept a one world religion of worship. They accuse them of being disobedient to the Church.
As I said, we are not commanded to be obedient to heresy.
joasia wrote:Your view is very biased. Your reasoning is immature and greatly lacking in discernment.
No Joasia, read the Evergetinos on obedience. This is the teaching of all the Holy Fathers. If your spiritual Father tells you to jump, don't ask how high. Just jump. Don't question the logic of his obedience. The Evergetinos explains that even if an obedience is illogical, we are still to follow it. We must be 100% obedient to our spiritual fathers in everything, except heresy or sexual immorality. We must completely cut-off our own wills. This is not only true for monastics, but for all people who are Orthodox. We must not critique or analyze what we are told to do. We are to do it without any question. This is the Orthodox way.
I remember a story of a monk painting an icon. He had only one more small stroke left. And it was a very important stroke where he had to focus and not ruin it. When his spiritual father called his name, he didn't even finish the stroke. He went to his spiritual father.
Another good example is this: if a person is in the middle of washing their hands and their spiritual father calls their name, don't rinse your hands. Stop washing immediately and go to him with the soap on your hands. This might sound fanatical to our world today, but this is because we have fallen drastically from true Orthodox understanding. I submit that if people had this level of obedience and devotion today, the churches would be united and there would be saints everywhere.
The Fathers tell us that it is better to offend Christ, then our spiritual father. The spirtitual father is in the place of Christ. Since we are expected to obey Christ in everything without any question, how much more our spiritual father? Think about that.