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Re: NOVA: Quantum Leap = It takes a leap to believe

Posted: Fri 27 February 2015 12:14 am
by Cyprian

St. Basil stresses throughout his treatise that one must be very guarded and discerning when reading the pagan literature of the Greeks:

For example:

"Therefore the soul must be guarded with great care, lest through our love for letters it receive some contamination unawares, as men drink in poison with honey."

"But let us return to the same thought with which we started, namely, that we should not accept everything without discrimination, but only what is useful."

The problem lies in that people are not treating the writings of C.S. Lewis (including the fantasy novels) as "pagan" literature. They are calling his writings Christian, and are also calling him a Christian, even though he was in no wise Orthodox in his thinking, so his Christianity is compromised and not pure. I have read his "Mere Christianity" which is an obviously ecumenist work.

If people would just call his Chronicles of Narnia what it is, a pagan work, rather than mislabeling it as Christian, and would instruct everyone to be very guarded and discerning when reading it, taking from it only those concepts which are good, and recognizing and rejecting those concepts which are harmful and injurious, this would not be such an issue. But I haven't observed anyone doing such thing. I see many people imbibing his stories without their guard up, because they've been told it's Christian literature, written by a Christian.

Furthermore, the writings of the pagan poets taught all sorts of ridiculous and fabulous and shameful values alongside the occasional "virtues," so Christians could easily recognize that these writings could not be trusted without question, since they were pre-Christian.

The writings of C.S. Lewis are much more insidious, since they are cloaked under the guise of "Christian allegory". The harmful concepts in his writings are more subtle, and not as blatant or obvious as with the pagan writings, so people tend to let their guard down, especially children who read his books, who are yet not equipped with the powers of discernment as older folks, such as the "young men" St. Basil is addressing.

It was not only St. Justin that ridiculed the writings of the Greek poets, but later fathers as well. St. Chrysostom came a bit after St. Basil, and held similar disdain as St. Justin for the pagan writings. I will have to see what I can find in my notes, but this is what I have found for now.

St. John Chrysostom - Homily IX on the Gospel According to St. John

While they of the Gentiles, who had enjoyed none of these things, who had never heard the oracles of God, not, as one may say, so much as in a dream, but ever ranging among the fables of madmen, (for heathen philosophy is this,) having ever in their hands the sillinesses of their poets, nailed to stocks and stones, and neither in doctrines nor in conversation possessing anything good or sound. (For their way of life was more impure and more accursed than their doctrine. As was likely; for when they saw their gods delighting in all wickedness, worshiped by shameful words, and more shameful deeds, reckoning this festivity and praise, and moreover honored by foul murders, and child-slaughters, how should not they emulate these things?)


Re: NOVA: Quantum Leap = It takes a leap to believe

Posted: Fri 27 February 2015 1:00 am
by jgress

Well I really don't get what's so dangerous about Lewis. As far as I can tell, the only charge that sticks is that he has magic in his story and magic is supposed to be intrinsically evil. I have a hard time taking that seriously because, in Lewis' fictional universe, magic can be good. I think a better way to think about it is that we Orthodox believe in good and bad supernatural forces. We tend to reserve the word "magic" for the bad forces, and we call the good forces by other names, e.g. "miracles". So really I think your attitude towards Lewis is based on misunderstanding of labels. In his fictional universe, good and evil are clearly distinct, and supernatural figures like Aslan use their powers for good. Calling them "magical" doesn't change their intrinsic goodness.


Re: NOVA: Quantum Leap = It takes a leap to believe

Posted: Fri 27 February 2015 3:58 pm
by Isaakos

On the contrary, Lewis requested entry into the Orthodox Church, but his Ecumenist friends talked him out of it. His vision of salvation is clearly Orthodox, being an expression of deification:

From Mere Christianity

“He came to this world and became a man in order to spread to other men the kind of life He has – by what I call ‘good infection.’ Every Christian is to become a little Christ. The whole purpose of becoming a Christian is simply nothing else”

“The command Be ye perfect is not idealistic gas. Nor is it a command to do the impossible. He is going to make us into creatures that can obey that command. He said (in the Bible) that we were ‘gods’ and He is going to make good His words. If we let Him – for we can prevent Him, if we choose – He will make the feeblest and filthiest of us into a god or goddess, dazzling, radiant, immortal creature, pulsating all through with such energy and joy and wisdom and love as we cannot now imagine, a bright stainless mirror which reflects back to God perfectly (though, of course, on a smaller scale) His own boundless power and delight and goodness. The process will be long and in parts very painful; but that is what we are in for. Nothing less. He meant what He said.”


Re: NOVA: Quantum Leap = It takes a leap to believe

Posted: Fri 27 February 2015 4:24 pm
by Cyprian

Jonathan,

There is much more than just the promotion of magic in his stories. The trouble is, there are many stories, including 7 books and several hundred pages in his Narnia series alone. It would require a massive expenditure of time and energy to attempt to decipher and organize a refutation of everything hidden and contained in his books.

Starting with his first book, the Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, allow me, if you please, to point out just a few things.

Lucy is portrayed as a very naive and innocent little girl, the youngest of the four children. She enters Narnia (Babylon) through the "secret chambers," i.e. the wardrobe. How do we know Narnia is Babylon? In several ways, but to begin with, what are the creatures that she encounters there? The very first creature she encounters is a monstrous creature named Mr. Tumnus, who identifies himself as a faun.

The book of Isaiah is part of our Lenten readings and soon we will come to chapters 13 and 34, in which fauns, which are also called satyrs, and incubi, are shown to be inhabitants of Babylon.

St. Augustine - The City of God

"There is, too, a very general rumor, which many have verified by their own experience, or which trustworthy persons who have heard the experience of others corroborate, that sylvans and fauns, who are commonly called "incubi," had often made wicked assaults upon women, and satisfied their lust upon them..."

Now, we have to ask ourselves, why would this supposed Christian C.S. Lewis invent a story where one of the main characters is a monstrous two-horned faun, which befriends a naive little girl and lures her back to his cave dwelling? Then he plays a lullaby on his pan pipes, and she falls asleep for seemingly hours.

And the tune he played made Lucy want to cry and laugh and dance and go to sleep all at the same time. It must have been hours later when she shook herself and said...

What kind of wicked assault made this Pan-like faun on young Lucy as she was asleep for hours? Did he satisfy his lust upon her?

Would you believe that I'm the sort of Faun to meet a poor innocent child in the wood, one that had never done me any harm, and pretend to be friendly with it, and invite it home to my cave, all for the sake of lulling it asleep and then handing it over to the White Witch?"

I won't elaborate in graphic detail of the meaning behind the euphemism of being handed over to the white witch. Suffice it to say, that in this story, on the surface, it all seems to work out well in the end, for the faun actually ends up becoming great friends with young Lucy and not turning her over.

So what is the lesson that C.S. Lewis teaches young girls who read his stories, and admire and want to emulate Lucy the Valiant, Queen of Narnia? That it is perfectly safe and acceptable to be lured back to some strange man's (or beast's) home by the temptation of sweet cakes and sardines. Even though you were somehow magically intoxicated and asleep for hours, that nice little faun wouldn't dream of making a wicked assault on you, as was explained in the fathers, right?

The same notion is repeated with the next youngest, Edmund. He is seduced by a much older "woman" with some warm drink and Turkish delight. Lesson for the children: don't be afraid of strangers in strange places, who seduce you with treats. It will all work out in the end, and nothing bad will happen to you in the company of these devilish creatures.

So the children sat on their thrones and sceptres were put into their hands and they gave rewards and honours to all their friends, to Tumnus the Faun, and to the Beavers, and Giant Rumblebuffin, to the leopards, and the good centaurs, and the good dwarfs, and to the lion. And that night there was a great feast in Cair Paravel, and revelry and dancing, and gold flashed and wine flowed, and answering to the music inside, but stranger, sweeter, and more piercing, came the music of the sea people.

How interesting that these children are introduced to dancing of satyrs, Bacchanalian revelries and wine. Lucy and Edmund seem a bit young to be partaking of a pagan wine festival, no?

Dialogue of Palladius Concerning the Life of St. John Chrysostom:

[A] man who (so I have often been told) carried theatre girls upon his shoulders at drinking parties lit for satyrs, his head garlanded with ivy, and a bowl clasped in his hand, playing the role of Dionysus in the fable, as master of libations

St. Jerome Letter to Marcella:

Have I ever embellished my dinner plates with engravings of idols? Have I ever, at a Christian banquet, set before the eyes of virgins the polluting spectacle of Satyrs embracing bacchanals?

St. Clement of Alexandria - Exhortation to the Heathen

"Stop, O Homer, the song! It is not beautiful; it teaches adultery, and we are prohibited from polluting our ears with hearing about adultery for we are they who bear about with us, in this living and moving image of our human nature, the likeness of God,--a likeness which dwells with us, takes counsel with us, associates with us, is a guest with us, feels with us, feels for us...

Such are examples of your voluptuousness, such are the theologies of vice, such are the instructions of your gods, who commit fornication along with you; for what one wishes, that he thinks, according to the Athenian orator. And of what kind, on the other hand, are your other images? Diminutive Pans, and naked girls, and drunken Satyrs, and phallic tokens, painted naked in pictures disgraceful for filthiness."

Eusebius of Caesaria - Preparation for the Gospel:

(quoting Diodorus)

"'The priests who succeed to the hereditary priesthoods in Egypt are initiated in the mysteries of this deity: the Pans also and the Satyrs, they say, are honoured among men for the same reason; and therefore most persons dedicate images of them in the temples very similar to a he-goat; for this animal is traditionally said to be extremely lustful."

St. Jerome

"Antony was amazed. and thinking over what he had seen went on his way. Before long in a small rocky valley shut in on all sides he sees a mannikin with hooked snout, horned forehead, and extremities like goats' feet. When he saw this, Antony like a good soldier seized the shield of faith and the helmet of hope: the creature none the less began to offer to him the fruit of the palm-trees to support him on his journey and as it were pledges of peace. Antony perceiving this stopped and asked who he was. The answer he received from him was this: "I am a mortal being and one of those inhabitants of the desert whom the Gentiles deluded by various forms of error worship under the names of Fauns, Satyrs, and Incubi."

Greek Name......Transliteration........Latin Name.........Translation
Παν................... Pan...............Faunus, Inuus..........All (pan), Rustic
http://www.theoi.com/Georgikos/Pan.html

PAN was the god of shepherds and flocks, of mountain wilds, hunting and rustic music. He wandered the hills and mountains of Arkadia playing his pan-pipes and chasing Nymphs. His unseen presence aroused feelings of panic in men passing through the remote, lonely places of the wilds.
The god was a lover of nymphs, who commonly fled from his advances. Syrinx ran and was transformed into a clump of reeds, out of which the god crafted his famous pan-pipes.
Pan was depicted as a man with the horns, legs and tail of a goat, and with thick beard, snub nose and pointed ears. He was often appears in the retinue of Dionysos alongside the other rustic gods.


Re: NOVA: Quantum Leap = It takes a leap to believe

Posted: Fri 27 February 2015 4:38 pm
by jgress

Sexual assault on the part of Mr Tumnus is in your own head, Cyprian. You have nothing but your own insinuations to go on and your interpretation says a lot more about you than about Lewis.


Re: NOVA: Quantum Leap = It takes a leap to believe

Posted: Fri 27 February 2015 5:44 pm
by Cyprian
Philaret The-Zealot wrote:

On the contrary, Lewis requested entry into the Orthodox Church, but his Ecumenist friends talked him out of it. His vision of salvation is clearly Orthodox, being an expression of deification:

Philaret, I'm afraid you undermine your own argument when you admit that Lewis was fully aware of the special uniqueness of the Orthodox Church, expressed a desired to join, but was talked out of it by some ecumenists. I think we see the fruits of this fateful decision. If it went exactly as you say, he has little excuse, because the truth was presented to him and he willingly rejected it. He would be more excused if Orthodoxy had never been presented to him.

For every seeming bit of honey you cull from Mere Christianity, that appear Orthodox on the surface, I can just as easily present bits of ecumenist poison.

Before Lewis even begins, he prefaces his work by saying:

"The reader should be warned that I offer no help to anyone who is hesitating between two Christian "denominations." You will not learn from me whether you ought to become an Anglican, a Methodist, a Presbyterian, or a Roman Catholic."

He confesses that he does not know exactly where the truth resides. Protestant.

"Ever since I became a Christian I have thought that the best, perhaps the only, service I could do for my unbelieving neighbours was to explain and defend the belief that has been common to nearly all Christians at all times."

That would be Orthodoxy, which he seems to know nothing about. For example, where is the defense of holy images (icons)? Nowhere to be found! That would be offensive to Protestants, so let's just ignore them!

"Some people draw unwarranted conclusions from the fact that I never say more about the Blessed Virgin Mary than is involved in asserting the Virgin Birth of Christ. But surely my reason for not doing so is obvious? To say more would take me at once into highly controversial regions."

I think his work should be renamed "Watered Down Christianity". C.S. Lewis admits from the very get go that he is going to ignore certain fundamental dogmas (of Orthodox Christianity) merely to avoid controversy. This is the heart of ecumenism. Let's just focus on that which we agree, and ignore those things which divide us.

Must i go on through the whole work? I only have so much time to devote to this wishy-washy mish-mash. Let's just skip to the very end, where Lewis starts babbling on about Evolution, which he apparently takes for granted, although he seems to make allowance for "some educated people" to think other than he does. More ecumenism. Evolution is antithetical to Christianity, and wholly incompatible with the revelation of Sacred Scripture and the Fathers regarding the creation of man. One cannot be a sincere Christian and subscribe to the Evolutionary theory.

"In the last chapter I compared Christ's work of making New Men to the process of turning a horse into a winged creature. I used that extreme example in order to emphasise the point that it is not mere improvement but Transformation. The nearest parallel to it in the world of nature is to be found in the remarkable transformations we can make in insects by applying certain rays to them. Some people think this is how Evolution worked.

The alterations in creatures on which it all depends may have been produced by rays coming from outer space. (Of course once the alterations are there, what they call "Natural Selection" gets to work on them: i.e., the useful alterations survive and the other ones get weeded out.) Perhaps a modern man can understand the Christian idea best if he takes it in connection with Evolution. Everyone now knows about Evolution (though, of course, some educated people disbelieve it): everyone has been told that man has evolved from lower types of life."

"Thousands of centuries ago huge, very heavily armoured creatures were evolved. If anyone had at that time been watching the course of Evolution he would probably have expected that it was going to go on to heavier and heavier armour. But he would have been wrong."

You call this Evolutionist drivel "Orthodox"? Lewis goes on and on with his Evolutionist drivel, but I am not going to quote pages of his nonsense. You can go read it for yourself, if you choose.

I do not even regard C.S. Lewis as a Christian, let alone an "orthodox" Christian. I believe he was part of a secret society of Masons whose mission is to deliberately and deceptively undermine Christianity, but most people wouldn't recognize or understand this so ...


Re: NOVA: Quantum Leap = It takes a leap to believe

Posted: Fri 27 February 2015 5:59 pm
by Cyprian
jgress wrote:

Sexual assault on the part of Mr Tumnus is in your own head, Cyprian. You have nothing but your own insinuations to go on and your interpretation says a lot more about you than about Lewis.

It's very blatant in the Disney film The Lion The Witch and the Wardrobe (2005). Apparently that's how they wanted Mr. Tumnus, as Pan, to be understood. In the film, they also made sure to have Lucy "panic" when she first chances upon Tumnus, because the origin of the word "panic" comes from those who suddenly stumble upon Pan in the woodlands.

It's more subtle in the books which were written in the forties and fifties―you only get the full picture of what Tumnus and Aslan are from the context all of the Narnia books read as a whole.

Aslan is a roaring lion who roams about Narnia. There is explicit focus on his roar quite often. Several times in the series he is called "the great beast".

There's nothing Christian about these novels. Peter goes around saying "By Jove" multiple times. Kids identify with and emulate the heroes they read about in novels. They all want to be Peter or Lucy or Harry Potter or Katniss Everdeen. Do you want your children to go around saying "By Jove" after reading these books? Jove is Jupiter, a god of the nations.

"The gods of the nations are demons."