Cyprian Was Wrong on Rebaptism

[Jean-Serge]

Just a personal question? Are you catholic believing in the filioque and so on? I have no time to make my research now because my books are not in home now; but I will have to look in the library... I would be happy to hear your opinion about the Honorius case that denies the Papal infallibility. Another point is that King Saul and Israel were specially elected and established by God but lost God approval because they were not faithful... So God withdrew his blessing... The same with the pope... But please let me some days to come back on this issue with detailed historical arguments that shows that popes had for instance that popes had opposite views on dogmatical subjects, which means one were wrong...

[Suaidan]

No.

It appears he is under the influence of Scott Butler and John Collorafi.

I know because I debated one of their people and the authors themselves over the phone.

[Suaidan]

Catholics do not deny popes can be wrong. The teaching is that they cannot be wrong when they speak to the universal Church on matters of faith or morals in an ex cathedra context from the chair.

I said previously that the formula of Hormisdas was signed by around 20,000 eastern clergy according to one account. I was wrong. The account says about 2500.

St. Theodore the Studite wrote to Pope Leo III[795-816]:

...O arch-shepherd of the church... save us now... For if they, usurping an authority which does not belong to them, have dared to convene a heretical council, whereas those who follow ancient custom do not even have the right of convening an orthodox one without your knowledge, it seems absolutely necessary, we dare to say to you, that your divine primacy should call together a lawful council, so that the Catholic dogma may drive out heresy and that your primacy may neither be anathematized by these new voices lacking authority...

It is in order to obey your divine authority as chief pastor that we have set forth these things as it befitted our nothingness... [PG 99: 1017-21]

St. Theodore wrote to Pope Paschal[817-824]:

... O apostolic head, divinely established shepherd of Christ’s sheep, doorkeeper of the heavenly kingdom, rock of the faith on which the Catholic Church has been built. For you are Peter-- you are the successor of Peter, whose throne you grace and direct... To you did Christ our God say, "When you have been converted, strengthen your brethren." Now is the time and the place: help us, you who have been established by God for that purpose... [PG 99: 1152-3]

Do you agree that St. Theodore believed the authority of the Pope was a Divine Rite? If not, why?

Since YOU didn't ask that question, but Gerald Daffer did in my debate with him (It was in July of 2002), I shall simply post what I wrote there. (The whole debate is here at http://suaiden.freehostia.com/debate.pdf)

Answer #3
No. St Theodore’s request to Pope Leo III, who, by right of his being first in the episcopate and Orthodox confession, is entirely canonical, since nothing ever happens without the consent of the
senior Bishop in a province, barring heresy. (No one disputes that the Pope of Rome was the First Hierarch in the Orthodox Church.) See Canon 34 of the Holy Apostles (referring to any Episcopal actions), Canon 6 of Nicea (referring to Episcopal elections), Canon 25 of the 4th Ecumenical Council (elections must be ratified by the Metropolitan), and Canons 9, 19, and 20 of Antioch. Note his words: whereas those who follow ancient custom do not even have the right of convening an orthodox one without your knowledge. This is in line with the canons spanning over centuries.

As for the second quote: I must note that St Theodore speaks, in many cases, symbolically: This can be demonstrated by noting that the Testament of St Theodore, written in 826 to the superiors of monasteries, also references Matthew 16:19. (See PG 99, col 1821):

22. You shall not take charge of the treasury room nor assume the cares of stewardship, but let your key be the greatest care of souls, of loosing and binding according to the Scriptures (cf. Matt.16:19). (Testament, St Theodore of Studios, translation of Timothy
Miller, cit. http://www.doaks.org/typ009.pdf)

I certainly would not go so far as to say that St Theodore believed in a "Divine Right of Papal Primacy", though it is clear he relied on Orthodox Popes and had great respect for them. There’s no evidence, certainly not what’s presented here, to make a Primatial claim.

[Suaidan]

Since you are doing so good asking Gerry Daffer's old questions from 2002, maybe you'd like a turn answering them: like the one he IGNORED on the Libellus of Hormisdas. First asked 2002. NEVER ANSWERED, during or after the debate.

I’d like to address the issue of the Libellus of Hormisdas. You said that referring to the issues surrounding the document as a "sorry affair" could only be viewed as such by the devil. I decided that this issue obviously deserved some research. That research leaves me a question-- the answer I am sure you can glean through the sparse documentation of the period.

Why did the Patriarch John II object to the Pope’s letter-- and only agreed to sign it after a council with the Papal legates present, by re-writing the letter with a preface stating: Know therefore, most holy one, that, according to what I have written, agreeing in the truth with thee, I too, loving peace, renounce all the heretics repudiated by thee for I hold the most holy churches of the elder and of the new Rome to be one; I define that see of the apostle Peter and this of the imperial city to be one see, and at the same time, why did Dorotheus of Thessalonica (you allege Thessalonica was once the vicariate of Rome itself) rip the document in half? It should also be noted that the legates accepted Patriarch John’s revision, and that despite the protest of St Hormisdas, Dorotheus was tried and freed in Constantinople after writing Hormisdas a letter affirming Chalcedon (Inter Epp. Hormisd. Ixii.lxiii. lxxii. Lxxiii).

Putting my statement in such a context, I think calling it a "sorry affair" makes sense. But you say otherwise. (CITATION in response to Jerry's accusation: The preface of John II is a protest that Hormisdas accepted, not a concession as my opponent claims. Nor did the Libellus end the schism, but Hormisdas’ support of military action by Emperor Justin. Source: DICTIONARY OF EARLY CHRISTIAN BIOGRAPHY, Wace / Piercy, quoted in the Roman Catholic Patrology of Dr Bardenhewer at Munich, English translation by Dr. T.J. Shahan, Catholic University of America, 1908. I refer to entry: Hormisdas ( 8 ), par. 3-5.)

Have a nice day.

[Evfimy]

Since YOU didn't ask that question, but Gerald Daffer did in my debate with him (It was in July of 2002), I shall simply post what I wrote there. (The whole debate is here at http://suaiden.freehostia.com/debate.pdf)

The fact he asked the same question, cannot logically be deduced as proof that I also did not ask the question. I did copy from his post which I found because it was easier then just typing it out myself.

Answer #3
No. St Theodore’s request to Pope Leo III, who, by right of his being first in the episcopate and Orthodox confession, is entirely canonical, since nothing ever happens without the consent of the
senior Bishop in a province, barring heresy.

Saint Theodore is not just talking to a senior bishop. He refers to the pope as:

"the rock of faith on which the Catholic Church has been built."

"Archsheperd."

His "divine primacy."( If it is divine, then it is enduring and prepetual).

"chief shepherd."

"Apostolic head."

"divinely established shepherd." (Since it is divine, is is enduring and perpetual).

"door keeper."

Now, either you believe Saint Theodore or not.

(No one disputes that the Pope of Rome was the First Hierarch in the Orthodox Church.)

Good. And since his hierarchy is by divine right and perpetual, you should still be affording him the same respect today.

See Canon 34 of the Holy Apostles (referring to any Episcopal actions), Canon 6 of Nicea (referring to Episcopal elections), Canon 25 of the 4th Ecumenical Council (elections must be ratified by the Metropolitan), and Canons 9, 19, and 20 of Antioch.

No one denies that local metropolitans had jurisdiction over their own provinces, but the record clearly affirms the popes had jurisdiction over the entire Church.

Note his words: whereas those who follow ancient custom do not even have the right of convening an orthodox one without your knowledge. This is in line with the canons spanning over centuries.

You better believe it.

As for the second quote: I must note that St Theodore speaks, in many cases, symbolically:

I would think "door keeper" and "rock of the faith" are indeed symbolic appelations. But I'm more concerned with the point he is trying to convey. And there is no proof everything he said is symbolic. In fact, he never applied the term "symbol" in the quotes I gave. You did, but he didn't.

This can be demonstrated by noting that the Testament of St Theodore, written in 826 to the superiors of monasteries, also references Matthew 16:19. (See PG 99, col 1821):

22. You shall not take charge of the treasury room nor assume the cares of stewardship, but let your key be the greatest care of souls, of loosing and binding according to the Scriptures (cf. Matt.16:19). (Testament, St Theodore of Studios, translation of Timothy
Miller, cit. http://www.doaks.org/typ009.pdf)

Indeed, but he never referred to the superiors of monasteries as:

"Archsheperd"

having a "divine primacy"

"chief pastor"

"apostolic head"

"door keeper"

"rock of faith on which the Catholic Church has been built"

Nor did he ever say this to any superior of a monastery:

Saint Theodore to Pope Paschal I:

"[The iconoclasts] have separated themselves from the body of Christ, and from the chief throne in which Christ placed the keys of faith: against which the gates of hell, namely the mouths of heretics, have not prevailed up to now, nor shall they ever prevail, according to the promise of him who does not lie." [PG 99:128].

We see in light of the above, that the papacy is "the chief throne" where Christ placed "the keys of faith" (authority), and that this authority os perpetual, that the mouths of heretics have never nor will ever overcome it.

Either you believe this holy Orthodox father or not.

He also stated to Pope Paschal the:

"leading luminary of the universe, our lord and master, the apostolic pope....From which Christ our God has established Your Beatitude in the west on the first apostolic throne as a divine torch for the illumination of the church which is under heaven...[PG 99:1153-6].

The saint continues...

"For from the beginning, you are the ever pure and ever limpid stream of orthodoxy; you are the tranquil harbor where the whole church finds sure shelter against all the tempests heresy, you are the citidel chosen by God to be assured refuge of salvation." [PG 99:1153-6].

He never once used this kind of language to some superior of a monastery.

He also stated to Michael the emperor:

"...Rome, the summit of all the Churches of God, and through her to the three patriarchs." [PG 99:1309].

Either one agrees with Saint Theodore or they don't.

I certainly would not go so far as to say that St Theodore believed in a "Divine Right of Papal Primacy", though it is clear he relied on Orthodox Popes and had great respect for them. There’s no evidence, certainly not what’s presented here, to make a Primatial claim.

What part of the above do you not get? He could not be any clearer. The primacy is perpetual (enduring) and by divine establishment. You have got be be as blind as a bat or just completely biased to ignore this massive array of substantial data.

[Evfimy]

No.

It appears he is under the influence of Scott Butler and John Collorafi.

I know because I debated one of their people and the authors themselves over the phone.

Actually, I am under the influence of Sts Theodore, Maximus, the Lateran Council, the Seventh Ecumenical Council, et al.

In reference to rebaptism, which this thread is about, we should heed the orders of Pope (saint) Leo the Great:

Those who had been validly baptized by heretics were to receive the Holy Spirit through the imposition of hands. [PL 54:1191-6].

The pope reaffirmed traditional principles anout canonical elections of bishops, clerical continence, the types and conditions of public penance, the necessity for a certainty of valid baptism, the reception of those baptized by heretics through confirmation, and so on. [PL 54:1197 sq.].

Pope Leo is venerated as a saint by the Latin and Byzantine churches. The Orthodox, whose tradition venerates his dogmatic tome as a "pillar of orthodoxy," commemorates St. Leo on February 18.

[Jean-Serge]

God made a divine promise to the people of Israel but since thay did not fulfill their obligations, he withdrew it... So everything that is divine does ot necessarily last for eternity if the person who is the object of the contract does not respect it.

Other example : people who are baptized sometimes quit the faith; however the baptism is divine...