The Saint Euphrosynos Cafe

maximus wrote:

I have a question about this:

I'm currently engaged. My fiancée is looking into Orthodoxy, she reads Scripture, talks to a priest, is intent on the path of it....

My question is this. What if we were to be married and later down in life, she apostasized from the faith? Utterly and completely. And theoretically we had kids?

Do you think it would be permissible to divorce her on the grounds of the spiritual well-being of the children? Especially if she was not just an apostate, but bitterly OPPOSED to Orthodoxy, to the point of encouraging the children away from the Church?

What are your thoughts?

Marriage, in the Orthodox Church, as taught by the Apostles and holy fathers is a sacred union. It is counted as one of the HOLY Mysteries. What does this mean? It means that the blessing of the Holy Trinity is bestowed upon the couple. Your souls become one. Your flesh becomes one. It is a bond by God. You are not only promising yourselves to each other like some kind of Western romantic union, but you are promising yourselves to God, in a holy union. Your prayers (when you pray together as a couple) will be heard as two hearts as one. Your sins will be weighed on her soul and hers on yours. This is a bond of Holy Mystery. It's a greater bond than having children. Actually, the God-parents are spiritually bonded, by God, to your children. They are more important, in God's eyes, than you are, although of course you need to be good parents, but the God-parents are actually responsible for the way your children grow spiritually. They will have to answer for their souls. Yes. They will have to answer for their lives and the souls they were supposed to guide towards God.

So, think very carefully about your decisions. Most people look at getting married as an event of life, but it is so much more. Consider marriage as serious as going to confession. You are standing before God. And I think that tragedies in people's marriages are because they don't approach it with reverence.

What is our only goal in life? Salvation. Both people should agree with where they are heading.

JamesR wrote:

Does the Roman Catholic Church really take this marriage-divorce thing seriously still? I constantly see them getting married inside of Court and/or marrying outside of their religion to Jews, Muslims, or atheists and yet they aren't being excommunicated or anything.

James,
In the Roman Catholic Church a sacramental marriage is indissoluble, so it is a very serious thing.
Many Roman Catholics obtain civil marriages and divorces, bu these are not recognized by the Roman Catholic Church.
The one exception to this is, if an annulment is granted, the couple must obtain a civil divorce. However, an annulment means that the marriage never really existed. So the people are free to marry in the Church again. This makes for an unpleasant situation for the couple, who have been living as man and wife outside a sacramental marriage, and for the children who are born outside of wedlock.
There is no such thing as a divorced Catholic, because the Catholic Church does not grant divorces.
How much more compassionate is the True Orthodox Church.

Maria wrote:

JamesR wrote:

Does the Roman Catholic Church really take this marriage-divorce thing seriously still? I constantly see them getting married inside of Court and/or marrying outside of their religion to Jews, Muslims, or atheists and yet they aren't being excommunicated or anything.

The Roman Catholic Church rarely uses formal excommunications, as most excommunications are incurred automatically if one does a particular act. For example, when I converted to Orthodoxy, I incurred an ipso facto excommunication, but my Orthodox Priest absolved me from any excommunications incurred at my first confession.

Maria,
You are still excommunicated from the Catholic Church. This was not lifted. An Orthodox priest or Bishop doesn't have this authority (or interest, I would imagine)
Your excommunication from the Orthodox Church was lifted when you were accepted into the True Church. That's what the prayer of absolution is for.

Lydia wrote:

JamesR wrote:

Does the Roman Catholic Church really take this marriage-divorce thing seriously still? I constantly see them getting married inside of Court and/or marrying outside of their religion to Jews, Muslims, or atheists and yet they aren't being excommunicated or anything.

James,
In the Roman Catholic Church a sacramental marriage is indissoluble, so it is a very serious thing.
Many Roman Catholics obtain civil marriages and divorces, bu these are not recognized by the Roman Catholic Church.
The one exception to this is, if an annulment is granted, the couple must obtain a civil divorce. However, an annulment means that the marriage never really existed. So the people are free to marry in the Church again. This makes for an unpleasant situation for the couple, who have been living as man and wife outside a sacramental marriage, and for the children who are born outside of wedlock.
There is no such thing as a divorced Catholic, because the Catholic Church does not grant divorces.
How much more compassionate is the True Orthodox Church.

Lydia,

Your play with words is terrifically clever. It reminds me of “The Compassionate Society” an episode of my favourite BBC comedy called, “Yes Minister”.
I addition to what you wrote, “how much more compassionate is the True Orthodox Church,” echoes what follows:

…And there came to him the Pharisees tempting him, and saying: Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause? Who answering, said to them: Have ye not read, that he who made man from the beginning, Made them male and female? And he said: For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and they two shall be in one flesh.

Therefore now they are not two, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let no man put asunder. They say to him: Why then did Moses command to give a bill of divorce, and to put away? He saith to them: Because Moses by reason of the hardness of your heart permitted you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.

Matthew 19: 3-9

In other words, the presumably your ever-so-compassionate version of “True Orthodox Church,” is very akin to the synagogue of Jesus’ time.

"What you bind on earth is bound in Heaven, and what you loose on Earth is loosed in Heaven". Matt. 18:18.

The Orthodox Church doesn't promote divorce, but because of mankind's fallen nature and sick soul, God permits oikonomia. Jesus Christ taught us what He wants us to follow. But, do we follow all His Commandments? No. Christ showed many examples of compassion. He wants us to repent. He wants us to admit, to ourselves, that we need to be better for His sake. Even the saints still believed that they were great sinners because they saw, in their souls, how great Jesus Christ is because they were drawing closer to Him. So, the idea of compassion and mercy is what the Orthodox Church teaches. Confession and Holy Communion are a means of healing the soul. And I know that couples are encouraged to meet with a priest to discuss their spiritual struggles. Divorce is not the answer. Jesus Christ teaches that divorce is not right, just as He teaches that killing is not right, but man can still go against these teachings because of the free will God gave us. These are grave sins, but should not be considered a one-way ticket to hell. He will always accept repentance. Repentance is the key. That's why we have confession.

NadirGP wrote:

Lydia wrote:

JamesR wrote:

Does the Roman Catholic Church really take this marriage-divorce thing seriously still? I constantly see them getting married inside of Court and/or marrying outside of their religion to Jews, Muslims, or atheists and yet they aren't being excommunicated or anything.

James,
In the Roman Catholic Church a sacramental marriage is indissoluble, so it is a very serious thing.
Many Roman Catholics obtain civil marriages and divorces, bu these are not recognized by the Roman Catholic Church.
The one exception to this is, if an annulment is granted, the couple must obtain a civil divorce. However, an annulment means that the marriage never really existed. So the people are free to marry in the Church again. This makes for an unpleasant situation for the couple, who have been living as man and wife outside a sacramental marriage, and for the children who are born outside of wedlock.
There is no such thing as a divorced Catholic, because the Catholic Church does not grant divorces.
How much more compassionate is the True Orthodox Church.

Lydia,

Your play with words is terrifically clever. It reminds me of “The Compassionate Society” an episode of my favourite BBC comedy called, “Yes Minister”.
I addition to what you wrote, “how much more compassionate is the True Orthodox Church,” echoes what follows:

…And there came to him the Pharisees tempting him, and saying: Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause? Who answering, said to them: Have ye not read, that he who made man from the beginning, Made them male and female? And he said: For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and they two shall be in one flesh.

Therefore now they are not two, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let no man put asunder. They say to him: Why then did Moses command to give a bill of divorce, and to put away? He saith to them: Because Moses by reason of the hardness of your heart permitted you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.

Matthew 19: 3-9

In other words, the presumably your ever-so-compassionate version of “True Orthodox Church,” is very akin to the synagogue of Jesus’ time.

Thank you, Nadir . I try.
A little creative editing there, though. You very cleverly left out Matthew 19: 9.
"And i say unto you, Whoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication,and shall marry another, committeth adultery:"

Lydia wrote:

...and for the children who are born outside of wedlock.

Speaking of that, what exactly is the Roman Catholic Church's position on children born outside of wedlock? My parents weren't married when they had me and I know several Hispanic Catholics who were born outside wedlock and we seem to be frowned upon heavily by the Roman Catholic Church. Is a distinction made or something? Does the RC Church come to regard children differently after their parents get an Annulment?