A Conversation on Modernism

[Natasha]

I am glad to see that some people have enjoyed dissecting my post. If you refer to the first post in the thread, I was responding to the list in the link: http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/mod_test.htm
I know that not all of the things I have mentioned are the

[Logos]

As for Sunday morning confession, I am not complaining about this because I am lazy. That is a truly ignorant statement. Sunday morning confession was a standard practice because you are less likely to sin before you take communion this way.

What about Saturday night confession, are you more likely to be on better behavior on Saturday night/Sunday morning if you want to take communion during the Liturgy. By the way, no one said that you were lazy. I did not say it in my last post.

Anyway, Natasha from your post I take it you are Russian in your background? I am Greek Orthodox and I have not seen any priests put icons in closets. In fact, at many Greek churches, a good part of the liturgy if not all of it is conducted in Greek. Currently, I attend the OCA because it is the closest to where I live. This church has many converts along with some Russians, Bulgarians, Serbians, Greeks, and an Aleut indian. It would be impossible to serve everyone's interests. From the description of the OCA church, I don't want to sound judgemental here, but it sounds like that may possibly be a bad church. One thing I have found is that there are bad Greek, OCA, Antiochian, and I am sure that there are bad ROCOR churches.
Another that is not related to this post in any way, is that many converts can be intimidated by the language/ethnic issues in Orthodoxy. I think if the church is to grow in North America, then English should be used. Granted, it depends on the make-up of the parish. If most of the parish are Russian/Greek immigrants, then there is nothing wrong with using those languages. Sometimes in Orthodoxy we have tendency to play social club and I think hurts us.

[Natasha]

I think I was primarily addressing the previous post by Nektarios. As far as the Sunday morning confession thing, this was mainly used by some recent immigrants from Russia. Just like you logos, I have always gone to confession after Vespers on Saturday night. I brought it up because I was very disappointed to see the Priest not allow these women to continue this practice, as they have for many years. It would stick in your mind too, if you saw a woman almost reduced to tears in church when the Priest would not hear her confession. As far as the reasoning behind the morning confession, sure, you can do your confession Saturday night, but you still will sin in your mind from the time you leave the church Saturday, until you return Sunday morning. So, the reasoning is, you will have your mind only focused on heavenly, pure things until you receive communion.
Yes, I am Russian-American. I realize that many converts can be intimidated because of the language/ethnic issues within the church. However, I don

[Nektarios14]

To respond to a few of the things said, number one, ROCOR is not the only jurisdiction that included the prayers for Russia. I have been involved with the OCA since birth, so I am well acquainted with what the church service is like.

My mistake, I apologize.

This is extremely troubling-especially when the Priest just replies that the length of the liturgy and what it consists of does not matter, that the important thing is that we are in church. Well, if that is the case, why don

[Logos]

Natasha, I do understand what you are saying. I have heard of Sunday morning confession being used by the Russians. Although one commit a sin during Divine Liturgy, it is easy for us as humans to do. I guess the priest should have worked something out. Anyway, I understand what you are saying. I don't think we should run away from our ethnicity or ethnic traditions. After all, who brought Orthodoxy to the new world? Was it not Greeks and Russians and other Slavic people?

As for what language to use for liturgy, it should really depend on the make-up of the parish. If 90% of the parish are converts who only speak English, then English should be used. It is decision that is best left to the priest and parish as to what language to use.

As for the OCA turning its back on the Russian Orthodox Church, I am not familar with the history of the OCA. However, there is a big push to have an Orthodox church that is American. I don't know if you are aware of anything like that. I think the OCA is trying to be that. Although, the Antiochians seem to have done the most missionary work in North America recently(I am talking in the last decade in terms of reaching and gaining converts).

As for the Greeks cherishing their faith and ancestry, if you want to learn more I would suggest looking at Greek history. Orthodoxy is intertwined in Hellenism, and two separate the two is impossible. I may not be remembering this correctly, but during the Ottoman rule of Greece by the Turks, it was the church that kept Greek identity alive. That is why you will not see the GOA turns its back on its Greek heritage. Being Greek and Orthodox go hand and hand. It is hard for me to describe this so please forgive me.

[Justin Kissel]

demetrios karaolanis

I am personally a strong traditionalist, I worry about some of the "reforms" that have taken place in the past century I thought a general discussion thread about modernism and the problems it can cause would be a good idea.

I think this is a good idea so long as the thread remains constructive criticism (about specific problems) and doesn't become an excuse for attacking particular Churches or Priests or Bishops. We're allowed judging wrong praxis and theology, we're not to be judging people or Churches and should make every effort to avoid this until it becomes impossible to avoid it (especially during Lent).

Natasha

Many of the things you mentioned (e.g., the icons, church calendar, etc.) were legit problems, and I can sympathise with experiencing the problems, and being unsure whether to cease participation in such a parish when it means that you will essentially be in liturgical limbo. I did have a few comments about some of the things you witnessed, though

Chairs in church
Priest with short-hair, no beard
Electric lamps
The Priest wore a 'clergy shirt'
The Priest refused to listen to Sunday morning confessions (before Divine Liturgy)
Men & women do not stand on opposite sides of the church

I've seen these--and many other things--in "traditionalist" parishes. The page that was linked to is good food for thought... but I think we traditionalists sometimes get way too overzealous, and end up firing on our own traditionalists in our tendency towards super-correctness (something that is probably better than a modernistic tendency, but which is a problem nonetheless).

I'm unsure why you mention "Electric lamps." I have heard arguments against such "modern" things as electricity in Churches, but I didn't think anyone would seriously mention electric lamps as a sign of modernism or a reason (even if minor) for leaving a parish. I understand why someone would insist on candlelight, and hey, if a parish wanted to institute that, I'd say more power to them! I think that'd be fantastic. Still, I've never, ever been in a Church or monastery that didn't use electric lamps during the service. Perhaps I misunderstand what you are saying here? Either way, could you clarify what you mean?

Regarding chairs, would you prefer sitting on the floors as monks did? Yes, I said monks Even monks sit from time to time during services, and I don't think it's utterly impermissable for we simple layman to do so either. Perhaps I shouldn't say much on this subject though as I can't speak very objectively on this (I'd probably subconsciously take a defensive position)

I know a number of ROCOR Priests that have short hair and trimmed beards (one has only a goatee). Good thing to point out as a product of modernism (in many cases), but let's make sure we consider it from a correct perspective. I've also seen a ROCOR Priest in a clergy "collar".

Not sure what is up with the no-confessions-on-sunday-morning thing. Perhaps people were abusing this, trying to confess just before communion because they didn't want to worry about keeping the fast (from sex, food, etc.) the night before? Or perhaps the Priest did not have enough time to do confessions in the morning as there might be a lot of other stuff that he needs to do... and in this case, even if a confession or two could be "fit in," they wouldn't be very specific, but would be short and generalized. shrugs Just wondering out loud.

Last note, I've been at a couple ROCOR parishes where the men and women didn't all stand on opposite sides. At one parish, some people (who were healthy) didn't do the prostrations that they were suppose to do. Some had globs of lipstick on. I'm sure I did lots of things that were wrong as well, though hopefully no one will post about them on a forum. (the only one that comes to mind is my refusal to bow and cross three times when venerating icons. Ok, get the noose out, I'm ready...)

---

Now, some generalised comments...

This past weekend, when I went to get some food on Sunday morning, one elderly lady yelled at me in a gruff, accusatory tone: "You paid for the meal!?" As a matter of fact, a friend had paid for the meal for me, but I wanted to yell back at her "What if I didn't? Are you going to offend someone over $3? Wouldn't it be better to have been faulted than to cast a stumbling block before someone? All the hubbub over a matter of $3?"

I didn't say any of that, but I wanted to. Instead I threw back most of what I had in my indignation, and took two rolls, and went outside and walked around. I was angry. That's one of my pet peeves, after all. Who in their right mind, especially in a parish where "rich folks" were not absent, would make such a fuss about a few bucks? I wondered in my prideful mind, "How could she accuse me!?" "Shouldn't she have covered over her brother's sin, if indeed I hadn't paid?" I asked myself.

Of course, someone could have asked me the same questions. Why all the hubbub because she asked me for the money, albeit in a hostile tone? Why was I ready, at least inwardly, to judge her and attack her and so forth? Shouldn't I have covered over my sister's sin, if indeed she had committed a sin, rather than judging her for it, and bringing it to the attention of others? I was a prideful fool.

Why do I bring this up? When Ignatius Brianchaninov talks about the tendency to judge in The Arena, he says that this is part of our animal nature/tendency. This does not mean, of course, an evolutionary type of thing, but only that by judging something as little as how they act in Church, how they are dressed, etc., we are showing our lowest, most primitive (least spiritual) side. We ought to focus on ourselves, not the faults of our brothers and sisters.

Ignatius said that people who judged in such a way did so out of ignorance. He said that they thought they were emulating the Fathers, but had no understanding of what they were doing. The Fathers, says Ignatius, judged only out of necessity, and only because God gave them the grace and allowance for doing so. Modernism is indeed a false set of beliefs (which changes with every generation) which we must speak out against. This means speaking out against specific lapses and problems. However, in doing this, let us make sure we keep our passions under control, and dialogue out of love, and not out of a (sometimes subconscious) want or tendency to attack people, groups, or even practices which we don't identify with our own tradition.

Not everything that is modern is bad. The next time you go into a warm Church which is heated throughout, out leave freezing temperatures, dwell on how we sometimes take "modern" things for granted which others who try to be "super-correct" might condemn us for (after all, couldn't someone argue that being in an unheated Church would be an ascetical discipline and that heated Churches--other than by fire--are only a modernization).

[Nektarios14]

I've seen these--and many other things--in "traditionalist" parishes

Some food for thought regarding judging entire jurisdictions... The priest at a local Serbian Church has a goatee and trimmed hair, electric lights, pews, men and women mixed, etc. etc. The priests here that have traditional priestly looks (beared, long hair) are GOA. The GOA monastery here is the most traditional Orthodoxy you'll find - period.