Powerful anathemas on Ecumenism

[Kollyvas]

The ecumenical movement has been presented for what it is in its own words which show a denial of Truth and an advocacy of depravity, sin, what leads one to hell. The evidence is clearly put up here--denying it does not make it any less so. It is presented on various threads for all to see. Orthodoxy is confessed in the Orthodox Church and the Saints and Canons presented testify to what has been put forward in condemnation of this iniquity. Show us the "saints" of ecumenism and its path of salvation or even those who would justify what has clearly been shown to be a depraved and evil path to apostasy. Without that it is clear where the ecumenists and those who coddle/justify them stand and where the Orthodox are. With that, this exchange concludes: ecumenical understandings doubt Orthodoxy, the witnees of the Canons, the Fathers, even Holy Scripture, the Saints, and affirm, by their own admission, speculative lands beyond good and evil the Church has categorically condemned AND/OR NEVER KNOWN. The depravity of ecumenism clearly leads one straight to hell.
R

[AndyHolland]

Righteous Lot should not have dwealt in Sodom, but he did so by his own choice.

Abraham, out of Love, cast away fear and argued with God Himself in Three Persons to save not only Lot, but the entire city for the sake of righteous who may have been there.

God out of love, delivered Lot and his daughters, while his wife who looked back was turned into a pillar of salt.

We need not condemn others or have schism over those who are in dialogue. We do need to condemn sin, and the things the wcc and others say and do we should speak against.

andy holland
sinner

[Kollyvas]

...HOLY SPIRIT IN OTHER RELIGIONS

“The church is called to discern the signs of the ‘hidden’ Christ and the presence of the Holy Spirit in other religions,” WCC central committee moderator Aram I said in his report to the assembly, according to a release by the Institute on Religion and Democracy.

Speaking on the need for unity among Christians, Aram, the Armenian Catholicos of Cilicia (one of the Lebanese church’s four major leaders), said a divided church cannot offer a credible witness to the world.

To reach the world, he advocated “a church beyond its walls” that is “liberated from its self-captivity” inside “dogmatic, ethical, theological, ethnic, cultural and confessional walls.” Aram went on to suggest that the Holy Spirit operates in non-Christian religions.

“According to biblical teachings, God’s gift of salvation in Christ is offered to the whole humanity,” he said. “Likewise, according to Christian pneumatology, the Holy Spirit’s work is cosmic; it reaches in mysterious ways to people of all faiths.”

Changes in the church and the world demand that Christians adopt new approaches to ecumenical organizations in the 21st century, Aram said. He noted that inter-religious dialogue can help believers get away from an “exclusivist, monological and self-centered self-understanding” and “look at the basics of our faith in a broader perspective.”

Aram’s comments on other religions were absent from the WCC’s official news release on his report, which focused on Aram’s call for Christian unity.

U.S. ‘RAINING DOWN TERROR’ ON THE WORLD

Throughout the assembly, delegates expressed anti-American sentiments regarding the war in Iraq and made claims of U.S. imperialism.

At a press conference Feb. 18, Leonid Kishkovsky, chief ecumenical officer of the Orthodox Church in America and former president of the National Council of Churches, presented a letter described as representing the WCC delegates from U.S. denominations. The letter portrayed U.S. military actions to thwart terrorism in terms of aggression against innocents.

“[O]ur country responded [to Sept. 11] by seeking to reclaim a privileged and secure place in the world, raining down terror on the truly vulnerable among our global neighbors,” the letter stated.

At the press conference, Kishkovsky appeared with John Thomas, president of the United Church of Christ; Sharon Watkins, general minister of the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ); Michael Livingston, NCC president; and Stanley Noffsinger, general secretary of the Church of the Brethren.

“Nations have been demonized and God has been enlisted in national agendas that are nothing short of idolatrous,” the letter stated. “We lament with special anguish the war in Iraq, launched in deception and violating global norms of justice.”......

...George Mathews Nalunakkal, a Syrian Orthodox priest from India spoke against “conservative” views of human sexuality.

“When this appeal to the Bible [in a literal way] is combined with natural law,” he said, “it leads to exclusive and conservative positions.” He also objected to “statements [that] reflect a rather negative anthropology, where man is seen as a ‘fallen’ creature and sin is sexual.”

In the same workshop, Sara Baltodano of Costa Rica presented a summary of conclusions reached by regional WCC meetings in Costa Rica and India. The presentation stressed the importance of “sexual rights.”

“Sexual rights are also human rights,” the summary said. “Right and responsibility go together. This does not mean that we promote sexual rights without the attendant responsibilities of being non-abusive within relationships, and faithful within whichever configuration of relationship one chooses to be in.”

Alan Wisdom, IRD interim president and reporter from the assembly, said Baltodano’s comments reveal a low view of traditional marriage between a man and a woman.

Her remarks “revealed the attempt to dethrone marriage from its traditional place at the center of Christians sexual ethics,” he said. “Instead Baltodano’s summary would affirm ‘whichever configuration of relationship one chooses to be in’ –- not exactly a biblical category of thinking, or even a clear rational category.”

Archbishop Desmond Tutu expressed the WCC’s pluralistic thinking in a Feb. 20 address on unity.

“Bush, bin Laden, all belong, homosexual, lesbian, so-called straight -- all belong and are loved, are precious,” he said. ...

ttp://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?ID=22744

[AndyHolland]

It doesn't matter how bad Sodom is, Lot is still righteous Lot.

Abraham still bravely pleads with God for the salvation of Sodom for the sake of the righteous few.

Moses still pleads with God for the salvation if wayward Israel.

Nebuchadezzar is still God's servant, and like Moses fails and falls when he arrogates his accomplishments to himself, and Daniel still pleads for him until he comes to his senses!

Love conquers all.

"Christ Jesus came into the universe to save sinners of whom I am chief" - 13.7 billion light year radius, and the worst sinner I can find in the entire Cosmos is me.

"Let God arise and judge the Earth, for to Him belong the nations!"

Dialogue is not heresy!

The wcc is not the Church nor is the Church a member of the wcc because the Church belongs to Christ.

andy holland
sinner

[Kollyvas]

The question is not of dialogue (WHICH IS ONLY LEGITIMATE WITNESSING ORTHODOXY) but of compromise of Truth, lack of Orthodox witness, apostasy and moral depravity, shrouded in disinformation and secrecy. This is a soul destroying evil which leads one straight to hell. This discussion ended two threads ago with ample evidence provided: no amount of obfuscation changes that. Now is the time to come to terms with reality and HONOUR THE WITNESS OF THE SAINTS AND THE TRUTH OF ORTHODOXY (not conjecture indefensible and unsubstantiated cloud castles which lewis carol couldn't even conceive). They are clear in denouncing this pan-heresy which leads souls straight to hell. No further comment is necessary. Humility honours the witness of the Saints and the Church.
R
ALL LOCAL CHURCHES OUT OF the ecumenical movement NOW!

[AndyHolland]

The question is not of dialogue (WHICH IS ONLY LEGITIMATE WITNESSING ORTHODOXY) but of compromise of Truth, lack of Orthodox witness, apostasy and moral depravity, shrouded in disinformation and secrecy.

Is this from first hand knowledge, from going to the meetings and seeing the Orthodox behave that way? Again, you cannot condemn righteous Lot based on the conduct of Sodom!

This is a soul destroying evil which leads one straight to hell. This discussion ended two threads ago with ample evidence procvided: no amount of obfuscation changes that.

Obfuscation is guilt by association.

It is very true however, that the wisest course is to leave the wcc alone after two or three admonishments. On the other hand, do you reach the same people after two or three meetings?

Now is the time to come to terms with reality and HONOUR THE WITNESS OF THE SAINTS AND THE TRUTH OF ORTHODOXY (not conjecture indefensible and unsubstantiated cloud castles which lewis carol couldn't even conceive). They are clear in denouncing this pan-heresy which leads souls straight to hell. No further comment is necessary. Humility honours the witness of the Saints and the Church.

Like Righteous Lot.

R
ALL LOCAL CHURCHES OUT OF the ecumenical movement NOW!

I sort of agree - but such a determination is above our humble pay grade!

andy holland
sinner

[AndyHolland]

Ecumenism also is not the wcc. Dialoguing with Heterodox outside of the wcc is not necessarily to be condemned with the same broad brush.

Arguments against continued dialogue with heterodox can be found in St. Irenaus of Lyon:

"There are those who have heard him tell how when John the disciple of the Lord went to bathe at Ephesus, and saw Cerinthus inside, he rushed out of the bath without washing, but crying out, "Let us escape, lest the bath should fall while Cerinthus the enemy of the truth is in it." Polycarp himself, when Marcion once met him and said, "Do you know us?" answered, "I know you, the first-born of Satan." The apostles and their disciples took such great care not even to engage in conversations with the corrupters of the truth, as Paul also said, "A heretical man after a first and second warning avoid, knowing that such a man has fallen away and is a sinner, being self-condemned."

However, in the same work we have examples of why dialogue is needed in certain instances:

"When he [St. Polycarp] visited Rome under Anicetus, he converted many of the above-mentioned heretics to the Church of God, proclaiming that he had received from the apostles the one and only truth, the same which is handed on by the Church."

and also this is most important:

"Even if the apostles had not left their Writings to us, ought we not to follow the rule of the tradition which they handed down to those to whom they committed the churches?  2Many barbarian peoples who believe in Christ follow this rule, having [the message of their] salvation written in their hearts by the Spirit without paper and ink. Diligently following the old tradition, they believe in one God, maker of heaven and earth and of all that is in them, through Christ Jesus the Son of God, who on account of his abundant love for his creation submitted to be born of a virgin, himself by himself uniting man to God, and having suffered under Pontius Pilate, and risen, and having been received up into splendor, is to come in glory as the Saviour of those who are saved, and the judge of those who are judged, and will send into eternal fire those who alter the truth, and despise his Father and his coming. Those who believe in this faith without written documents are barbarians in our speech, but in their convictions, habits, and behavior they are, because of their faith, most wise, and are pleasing to God, living in all righteousness and purity and wisdom. If anyone should preach to them the inventions of the heretics, speaking in their own language, they would at once stop their ears and run far, far away, not enduring even to listen to such blasphemous speech. So by that old tradition of the apostles they do not even take into their minds whatever their impressive words may mean."

There are many good people in Heterodox traditions who do not fall for false teachings - especially in Protestant circles. I cannot recall in many years of hearing Protestant sermons mention being made against the Orthodox, or very many positive affirmations of Martin Luther's teachings. There are many Orthodox in unorthodox, heterodox "traditions."

Some of them come to "Ecumenical" meetings.

andy holland
sinner