Powerful anathemas on Ecumenism

[AndyHolland]

Recall Lot's situation with his daughters? What do the Church Fathers say about that? The action was excused because they thought everyone in the world was dead. Certainly fathering children in incest is wicked and perverse, yet in the case of Lot, the Fathers excused it because of the perceived circumstance. Yet the true circumstance was far different.

Even the most rude form of moral depravity can be forgiven by the Church.

Ecumenism within the Church cannot be condemned, so to say "ecumenism leads one straight to hell" is certainly not correct in every circumstance. Now at what point, does the statement become correct?

We don't have to condemn anyone and we never do. We only lift them up to the merciful judgment of Jesus Christ the Lord. That is an Anathema. It is not a one way ticket to the infernal reaches!

The points you are making are very good and I do agree the wcc is not a good thing, nor is membership of the Church with the wcc organically possible. OTOH, if there is a righteous Lot in the middle of Sodom, who am I to judge them or anyone else?

Shouldn't I behave as Abraham, and cry to the Lord, if there are but 50 righteous in the city....?

andy holland
sinner

[Kollyvas]

There is MUCH in the Old Testament which is not proper in the age of Christ's mercy, ie concubinage or sacrifices for atonement or the stoning of sinners, etc. But the Holy Prophet Moses DID condemn the worship of the golden calf and Israel wandered in the desert a generation because of it. The Holy Prophet Sampson was sorely afflicted for his violations of the nazorite vow, even unto death. And the Holy Prophets railed against the secret worship of the false gods of the Babylonians which brought Israel to enslavement. The Holy Judas Maccabaeus resisted the pagan Greeks and their perversities. Christ commanded, GO AND SIN NO MORE. The Holy Apostle Paul is clear in his denunciation of depravity and his exhortations to avoid those reveling in it. It seems justification of ecumenism has to deny all of this. Yes, ecumenism surely is a path to hell.
R

[AndyHolland]

...On the other hand, as the Church is universal, who can say where the boundary is apart from God? Without Christ, we can do nothing. ...

THE FATHERS, THE CANONS, THE COUNCILS TESTIFY OF THE CHURCH AND ITS BOUNDARIES IN THEIR OBLIGATION GIVEN BY CHRIST TO "BIND & LOOSE." The Church in Christ Jesus is a testament of perfection which accomplishes everything--our SALVATION AND UNION WITH HIM.
R
The Church certainly has no part with those iniquitous whose depraved witness is heard in the ecumenical movement.

I certainly agree with most of your response. However, I would quibble with the term "obligation." If one is given power, one is given responsibility - one is obliged to use that power very, very carefully.

andy holland
sinner

[Kollyvas]

What the Church has done is done in the Holy Spirit.
R

[AndyHolland]

There is MUCH in the Old Testament which is not proper in the age of Christ's mercy, ie concubinage or sacrifices for atonement or the stoning of sinners, etc....
R

I am sorry but that is not what the Church Fathers said with regard to that story. In particular, as I recall, the actions were excusable because the daughters believed everyone in the world was dead and they had no children.

Furthermore to state "ecumenism surely is a path to hell" when you know perfectly well we do have an "Ecumenical" Patriarch is to be very, very loose with one's own words. There are many forms of Ecumenism that are not a path to hell by even your interpretation, unless of course you wish to argue with Ecumenical counsels! [I am loose with spelling ]

Legalism as a path to hell is what St. Paul warned most about. I don't know of any sexual misconduct on the part of Orthodox particpants at wcc meetings.

andy holland
sinner

[Kollyvas]

That the Holy Fathers would not advise incest in our age under similar circumstances perfectly accords with what I have presented. Secondly, the "Oikumene" from whence the ecumenical patriarchate derives its title MEANS THE ORTHODOX WORLD. It has been definitively presented how the "ecumenical" movement arrogates the title "ecumenical" to itself in the hopes of replacing the Church. It's errors and dissonance with the Saints and the Church have been testified here, and its iniquity and incompatibility with Orthodoxy has been brought forward. Denying that is blindness unworthy of Orthodoxy. The Church is clear on all counts that ecumenism leads one straight to hell for ecumenism revels in sin and advocates the continued denaturing of humanity in sin as opposed to its cure in the saving enclosure of Orthodoxy, participating in the uncreated energies of the God man. Canons are not "legalisms" or "obscurantism," but, rather spoken in the Holy Spirit and affirmed by the Witness of the Fathers as defining ORTHODOXY, the Faith which leads to union with Christ, and it is utterly blasphemous to say that this is somehow empty of charismatic authority: such types of "denunciations" are a clear denial of the Holy Faith. ecumenism and its ways clearly do lead one to hell.
R

[AndyHolland]

Just as one needs the guidance of the Holy Spirit to properly interpret Holy Scripture, one needs the guidance of the Holy Spirit to properly apply the Rudder (Church canon).

One could use the Rudder improperly, and anathematize people who eat at hotel restaurants with bars because they are Taverns. Of course, you and I know why going to a Tavern was Anathema - and applying that principle, we avoid "bars" in accordance with our conscience as directed from above.

As another example, in Japan Orthodox are cremated by law. This is required and for their population density, does make some sense. We could of course appropriate the bodies. Would that be logical application of the canon?

Joint prayer in the wcc is not permitted nor is Holy Communion. So what canon applies to dialogue?

Condemning Bishops without two or three reliable witnesses is also against the Canon.

Ecumenism in an Orthodox context is not evil nor is it a path to hell nor should we allow others to appropriate or misappropriate the term. The English spelling of Ecumenical is with an "E".

The Orthodox faith is the faith that establishes the Universe - not just the Orthodox world. That is the point. We have the true faith, and hiding it under a bushel basket is the prescription for a fire.

andy holland
sinner