Which Churches Are Orthodox?

[George Australia]

It simply meant that the overseerer of the Church of Constantinople had fallen into heresy, and therefore, had cut himself off from the Church.

So, despite the fact he had cut himself off from the Church he still could perform lawful (ie, Grace filled/salvific) Mysteries?

Dear Daniel,
If, God forbid, you fell into a grievous sin which meant you could not recieve Holy Communion, you would be cut off from the Church in the same way as Nestorios was, until you were reconciled with the Church through repentance. It is Orthodox teaching that even in this state of sin, Grace can still act- how could it not, since without "awakening grace" we can't come to repentance? See St. Theophan the Recluce- "The Path To Salvation". Until the anathama or an excommunication or a suspension or a deposition is pronounced on a Cleric by the Church, the mysteries they perform are still valid.

[OrthodoxyOrDeath]

A common mistake made today is confusing the Grace of Mysteries of the Church, which can only be found in the Church, and Grace acting in other forms and places - which only God knows.

[George Australia]

A common mistake made today is confusing the Grace of Mysteries of the Church, which can only be found in the Church, and Grace acting in other forms and places - which only God knows.

Dear OOD,

Agreed, however, rugged individualism is not the way of the Church. The Mysteries perfiormed by a cleric ordained in the Orthodox Church are not invalid because of individual opinion, but only when the Church has proclaimed it to be so.

For example, I hold that the Patriarch of Constantinople is currently publically teaching heresy. However, this is only the opinion of myself and my circle in the Church- the Church has not yet confirmed whether he is teaching heresy or not. In this case, the Canons only permit me to "wall off" from him.

[Daniel]

Dear Daniel,
If, God forbid, you fell into a grievous sin which meant you could not recieve Holy Communion, you would be cut off from the Church in the same way as Nestorios was, until you were reconciled with the Church through repentance. It is Orthodox teaching that even in this state of sin, Grace can still act- how could it not, since without "awakening grace" we can't come to repentance? See St. Theophan the Recluce- "The Path To Salvation". Until the anathama or an excommunication or a suspension or a deposition is pronounced on a Cleric by the Church, the mysteries they perform are still valid.

If a bishop is an occasional drunk is vastly different that if he openly says that Christ was not the Incarnate Logos but merely a perfect creation, or if Christ's body was only a shell, a phatom. The first doesn't effect his ability to perform the Mysteries (unless he is suspended/deposed etc), were as the latter places him outside the church unable to perform the Mysteries. Like OOD says, there is a difference.

[Daniel]

A common mistake made today is confusing the Grace of Mysteries of the Church, which can only be found in the Church, and Grace acting in other forms and places - which only God knows.

Dear OOD,

Agreed, however, rugged individualism is not the way of the Church. The Mysteries perfiormed by a cleric ordained in the Orthodox Church are not invalid because of individual opinion, but only when the Church has proclaimed it to be so.

For example, I hold that the Patriarch of Constantinople is currently publically teaching heresy. However, this is only the opinion of myself and my circle in the Church- the Church has not yet confirmed whether he is teaching heresy or not. In this case, the Canons only permit me to "wall off" from him.

The canons allow you to wall off from him only if the heresy he is preaching is already condemned.

[George Australia]

If a bishop is an occasional drunk is vastly different that if he openly says that Christ was not the Incarnate Logos but merely a perfect creation, or if Christ's body was only a shell, a phatom. The first doesn't effect his ability to perform the Mysteries (unless he is suspended/deposed etc), were as the latter places him outside the church unable to perform the Mysteries. Like OOD says, there is a difference.

I agree, but as I explained above, could you please direct me to the Canon which states that the Mysteries performed by a cleric who has not been suspended, deposed, excomunicated or anathemized by the Church yet, even if he falls into teaching an heresy condemned by the Councils, are invalid? The Canons only permit us to wall off from him, they say nothing about whether the Mysteries he performs are Grace-filled or not.
We ALL must hold to what the Church teaches, including how we handle these situations.

[George Australia]

The canons allow you to wall off from him only if the heresy he is preaching is already condemned.

The Apostolic Faith, as defined at the Councils of Nicea and Constantinople, and ratified at all subsequent Councils teaches that there is only "One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church".

The Ecumenical Patriarch holds that there are two "sister Churches".
(again, see the official website of the Ecumenical Patriarchate: http://www.ec-patr.gr/deltiotypou/engdi ... ata&lang=1)

Therefore, in my opinion, he is teaching an heresy condemned by the Councils