The New Holy Mountain Fathers

[Philaret]

Right. I don't accept the monk's simplistic report nor his implication that Esphigmenou is fallen. I am sure that the statement is nuanced.

I am hoping someone has the statement. This is important. The last bastion of Orthodoxy on the Holy Mountain is being discredited.

I was chrismated from Antioch into the GOC-K back in 2013. I took a wait-and-see approach after the Cyprianite union, praying from home for over a decade. Recently I have been talking myself into going back, but this has me on pause again. Lord, have mercy!

[eish]

praying from home for over a decade. Recently I have been talking myself into going back, but this has me on pause again. Lord, have mercy!

So, ME is Maine, some hours from the Abbey? On the order of a working day's drive? With other churches in the general vicinity as well?

Sorry for being that guy but not going to church in a decade sounds to me like a different problem from Cyprianism. You should contact your nearest other church if you don't trust the GOC-K (which I don't say that you should trust them now, but I wonder if the Cyprianite union was really that bad).

Some of us would love to have a church that close. America even has mostly functional buses and trains--find a way. Yeah, I'm being that guy but ask any of the clergy here and they'll be telling you roughly the same thing. You know it to be true.

I don't accept the monk's simplistic report nor his implication that Esphigmenou is fallen.

Let's not play broken telephone here. You say that your friend said that a monk said that Esphigmenou said. You don't even know if your friend accurately interpreted and relayed what the father told him, let alone if he did the same with the fathers of Esphigmenou. These sorts of stories may well be coming from a father who himself has not even read what the monastery wrote, but heard it from other fathers. Any of whom may have had an axe to grind. Keeping in mind that something which was declared “by Esphigmenou” might not even be official, if it is some personal opinion someone heard from any of the fathers at the monastery.

File it under things to investigate further: you asked in the right thread.

[Philaret]

I am tempted to take a defensive stance, but I didn't come here to put my personal struggle on display. Suffice it to say I have had a long run of dubious encounters with clergy from different jurisdictions. One priest, when discussing the problem of Cyprianism, patristically observed that my "trust generator" is broken. More than one priest gave advice in confession that nearly ended my marriage. And on and on. Please don't prejudge someone without knowing their story. I would love more than anything to have a fully functional trust generator and simply attend the closest church to me.

More to the point, you put a jurisdiction on full blast over covid issues (which obviously I tend to agree with), and yet you merely sideways glance at Cyprianism. It appears everyone decided one day that Cyprianism is really just a harmless theologoumenon, as if opinions on the ecclesiology of the Church are permissible. Along those lines, why not accept ecumenism as just an opinion? Or is it we are now saying that the SIR never really espoused the heresy and consequently had nothing to repent of publically? I believe my caution is warranted.

Look, I sincerely don't want to argue, and I apologize for anything offensive I may have written. My whole purpose for posting was to see if anyone had solid information on the covid issue with Esphigmenou. I think it's a grave matter when there's a break in communion. It's disheartening that information is so hard to come by.

[eish]

I am tempted to take a defensive stance, but I didn't come here to put my personal struggle on display. Suffice it to say I have had a long run of dubious encounters with clergy from different jurisdictions. One priest, when discussing the problem of Cyprianism, patristically observed that my "trust generator" is broken. More than one priest gave advice in confession that nearly ended my marriage. And on and on. Please don't prejudge someone without knowing their story. I would love more than anything to have a fully functional trust generator and simply attend the closest church to me.

You need to attend AN Orthodox church even if it means occasional travel. If NO church is good enough, then indeed the churches cannot be the problem. You are falling for the temptation on the right. Priests making mistakes and being wrong are NOT reasons to write them off. If that is your standard, you will be your own church forever.

Sorry but the “don't judge me” thing isn't going to help our souls. You need a dose of realism and you WILL be judged at the end of days. It is really simple: go to church with an expectation of correct doctrine but not of perfect clergy.

And please keep in mind that advice is not the same thing as monastic obedience. Many people today learn of the Faith from monastic writings and unfortunately that has us showing up at parishes with an expectation straight out of the Philokalia. The Fathers we read about are not even ordinary monks, let alone parish priests.

You were commanded to pick up that cross and carry it.

yet you merely sideways glance at Cyprianism.

Nope. I said the union may be overblown. I did not say the writings of Metropolitan Cyprian were not a problem. His jurisdiction, which produced those writings, no longer exists.

The union may have been mishandled. Fine, maybe it was. What is the official ecclesiology of the GOC-K synod today--that is the question you should be asking. If their official position is that the state church is graceless, then how could we call that Cyprianism? The two are mutually exclusive.

If they are too tolerant of Cyprianites in their ranks, then can you really say that they are in bare-headed preaching of heresy in church, or have they merely not done as much as they might to stomp out crypto-ecumenists in the ranks? You do not have a canonical right to break from your bishop over crypto-heresy. It is about public profession.

On the other hand maybe it is really that bad. I'm not an expert on the union and I am not in the GOC-K, that's why I said “I wonder.” I can't think of anyone calling Cyprianism a “theolegoumenon” so maybe you are jumping at shadows.

Not every church is the GOC-K. If you don't want to argue, then pick one. Why not go to the Matthewites or something. Surely you have no grounds to accuse them of Cyprianism, right? Our brother @haralampopoulosjc can probably set you up.

[Philaret]

Thank you for your concern for my spiritual well-being.

[Barbara]

Both of you : Greetings with the Dread Feast of St John the Baptist today

It is GOOD that you are bringing up problems that many people may also have. That way our readers will be able to see themselves more clearly and consider whatever options are open for them.

I find these discussions as highly useful because MANY people have similar difficulties along this challenging path.

Right, we all have to remember that Priests are wonderful to have chosen their vocations. BUT, not all are going to be so advanced souls.
Some have a gift for public speaking and drawing in converts from across the board. But the same priests may not be the wisest spiritual advisers.

They all will have their strengths and weaknesses.

Don't be discouraged, Philaret, because you may have run into a few less talented ones at counseling their spiritual children or parish members.

The best advice may be that you will FEEL you are in the right place when you walk in the door and/or speak with the Priest at a particular parish.

It might take awhile

But i don't have any fear because i am not involved with the GOC-K on any level to say outright that it's a good jurisdiction to avoid while Met Demetrios is still the chief hierarch.

Later maybe, but there are too many factors to know what direction things will take later.

Don't let your wife go ! Especially not over some inapplicable counseling from - perhaps it was - a new priest with too little experience ?

The clergy know a lot about SOME topics but they are not experts on every subject, naturally.

[Barbara]

Thank you for all your research and explanations !
I will read this from the library, thanks again, and greetings with the Church New Year tomorrow