What do you make of the quote from Cabasilas then, OOD? I'll be honest, I think people overreact a lot to kneeling and (oh the horrors!) sitting in Church. Yes, canons and traditions deal with these things and we can't change them willy nilly; but on the other hand, reading Church history we cannot help but find exceptions to the generally strictly stated rule. In one of the more astounding Sayings of the Desert Fathers, for instance, when one Abba was asked what he would do if a brother next to him fell asleep (the assumption was that they were already sitting down during the service), the Abba said he would put the man's head on his lap to be used as sort of a pillow. I'm not saying that we should all adopt kneeling or pews as normal, of course. Just bringing it up as it might help keep one from judging someone else the next time they see another "making a mistake". As Saint Ignatius (Brianchaninov) said, we have no right whatsoever to judge our brother as to what he does in Church. (though of course we can still talk about it generally here)
Church Practices
When I was living near Jordanville, I would often attend the early morning liturgies at the monastary. Full prostrations were done during Milost Mira, (sorry, I'm not very good on translating Slavonic into English) when the Spirit decends into the Gifts, at the begining of the Dostoyno Est, right before communion, and right after Communion when the priest pronounces "Always, now, & ever & unto the ages." The only time that was ok to sit is during pre-communion prayers. On Sundays, and the Paschal Period prostrations were not done at all. The only people i saw kneeling were old monks & babushki, who would kneel throughout from the time of the first prostration until the last, because it was too hard for them to keep getting up & then down. As J-ville is pretty strict with the rules, I'm pretty sure they got it right when it came to kneeling, prostrations, etc.
As far as people falling asleep in church, during Great Lent, especially Holy Week, in Jordanville, I've seen a great many monks & seminarians, as well as laypeople, propped up against walls & pillers, catching zzz's where they can, barely catching themselves before they fall flat on their faces. It's of course explainable by the fact that during Lent in Jordanville there are a great many services. Last year during Holy Week as an alter boy my brother spent a total of aproximately 41.5 hours in church (including the Pascha midnight service), as well as attending school, and he wasn't even at all the services. The brotherhood goes to all the services, as well as prepare the monastary for Pasha with cleaning & cooking etc, and go about their regular obediances. Because of this, if someone nods off, usually they are just nugded awake by some helpful someone standing nearby.
Does any of this have a point? I don't know. Back to work
Ania
Justin,
Sorry, but I missed your reply before.
What do you make of the quote from Cabasilas then, OOD?
Well, I am unfamiliar with Cabasilas. I am more familiar with Holy Tradition regarding this though.
I'll be honest, I think people overreact a lot to kneeling and (oh the horrors!) sitting in Church.
Yes, I think people overreact too. I also think people overreact when you simply try to talk about it and even hint that it is wrong - "You fanatic!"
Yes, canons and traditions deal with these things and we can't change them willy nilly;
Please don't confuse Holy Tradition with tradition or the canons, which often are not strictly about Holy Tradition. Holy Tradition cannot be changed. You've heard many times that there are many things handed down to us by the Apostles which are not written? Well this is one of them.
...but on the other hand, reading Church history we cannot help but find exceptions to the generally strictly stated rule.
Reading church history, one can find exceptions to just about everything, it is great ammunition to for the new-calendar minimalists. But one will also find that St. Basil the Great said, as well as other saints, that standing on Sunday and not kneeling was Holy Tradition passed down to us from the Apostles. So while I may not like this or that about certain things, I am openly against, and will say so, any common practice that snubs Holy Tradition. of course, depending on the circumstances, it needs to be objected to tactfully -- which I'm sure I am failing to do now, so forgive me!
Just bringing it up as it might help keep one from judging someone else the next time they see another "making a mistake".
Again, simply talking about it is not judging anyone. It seems people judge as much regarding people who discuss these matters, it works both ways. After all, to say one is judging is in fact judging yourself (not that I am directing this to you, but I've seen enough of it to want to lay a comment at your feet about it.
As Saint Ignatius (Brianchaninov) said, we have no right whatsoever to judge our brother as to what he does in Church. (though of course we can still talk about it generally here)
If someone was in the Church and began eating a ham sandwich, well, would I be judging him by thinking it was not proper or even permissable to do such a thing? Of course if someone stands on ones knees in the church, and we have had our share of new-calendarist visitors do this, nobody is going to even say a word to them. I'm sure they don't know any better, just like a Latin wouldn't. Now if this practice was being dicussed on a forum such as this, or began to be practiced commonly in our own church, it is a duty to speak the truth.
OrthodoxyOrDeath
Yes, I think people overreact too. I also think people overreact when you simply try to talk about it and even hint that it is wrong - "You fanatic!"
Well I certainly agree with that; admittedly there is a much greater amount of overraction coming from those who wish to justify sitting than from those who wish to defend standing.
You've heard many times that there are many things handed down to us by the Apostles which are not written? Well this is one of them.
No argument there
Reading church history, one can find exceptions to just about everything, it is great ammunition to for the new-calendar minimalists.
But it is also a note of caution to those who would be quick to open their mouths. You never know when you might be among angels. You never know when the fool who dares to sit down might be a fool for Christ. Shall I then instruct the saints and angels as to proper Church practices? Of course most times it won't be a saint or angel... but I think the (mostly monastic) Fathers were very wise in telling people to keep their mouth shut unless dire need required them to open it.
But one will also find that St. Basil the Great said, as well as other saints, that standing on Sunday and not kneeling was Holy Tradition passed down to us from the Apostles.
Again, no argument there (and I'm actually reading right now where Saint Basil [url-http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-08/N ... 482023says it[/url], certainly I'm not going to argue against him!) I don't want to stand against tradition. And I agree that exceptions can be brought up for anything (much like people can make the Bible to say almost anything they want). However, I think in this case the Holy Tradition is perhaps not so unflinchingly required as you seem to be saying. I brought up the example from the Desert Fathers and Nicholas Cabasilas (who was purposely writing on the Liturgy and why we do what we do) before, but there are lots of other "exceptions," and while I am not for sitting on Sunday mornings or feast days or such, I do think that "standing" in general is made too much an issue of. Saint John Cassian notes of some monastics he observed: "For when standing they have sung three Psalms antiphonally, after this, sitting on the ground or in very low stalls, one of them repeats three Psalms, while the rest respond, each Psalm being assigned to one of the brethren, who succeed each other in turn; and to these they add three lessons while still sitting quietly. And so, by lessening their bodily exertion, they manage to observe their Vigils with greater attention of mind." (Emphasis mine; Institutes, 3, 8) No one is going to deny the divinely-ascetic value of standing--even (or especially) standing when you don't want to and it is difficult; yet I don't find the hard and fast requirement to stand in the ancient Church (excepting the Tradition that says that we stand on Sunday morning--and on Feast Days, I imagine).
Again, simply talking about it is not judging anyone.
I don't know if I agree or not. Theologically (and logically) speaking, you are absolutely right. Explaining the rules and traditions of the Church is not necessarily a personal judgment (or driven by judgment). However, the more Orthodox literature I see, the more I realise that even in the very act of trying to teach someone we have already judged them. Even if all we have done is made a dispassionate judgement regarding whether they are following the Tradition, it is nonetheless a judgment. It is not the same as a passionate, personal, emotional judgement of someone--but it is a judgment--a noticing of error in a neighbor--nonetheless. The question I struggle with is, whose responsibility is that? If I see someone sitting in Church due to ignorance, is it my duty to "instruct them"? Or should I work towards such a state in which I would not notice that they are sitting, since I have not been appointed to instruct others? When James says that teachers have a greater or weightier judgment and condemnation, I think that extends to all attempts at instruction, from teaching children to correcting people who would sit in Church. It seems to me that we who haven't gotten the basic things down (prayer, fasting, alms giving, etc.) shouldn't be so quick and ready to take on the additional responsibility/load of teaching others--or else we might just fall into a personal judgment.
If someone was in the Church and began eating a ham sandwich, well, would I be judging him by thinking it was not proper or even permissable to do such a thing?
In a way, yes. You will have noticed him and his error. We might call it a dispassionate judgment; we might want to avoid using the word "judgment" at all (since we usually associate it with the personal, emotional, judging of someone). Maybe I just read the wrong books, eh? Maybe this is a personal thing for me, that is perhaps the problem, eh? And now I am trying to judge others based on my own personal, emotional, experience and outlook! Oy. How difficult is salvation.
Justin,
I believe you have a somewhat flawed "judgement" about judgement. Am I judging you for saying this?
The judgement that Christ and the Holy Fathers talk about is when you conclude the sinfulness or holiness of someone based on speculation.
If someone kneels on Sunday, I am not judging that person simply because I know for a fact that it is not Holy Tradition. It is wrong practice just as much as someone claiming universal authory for the pope based on a mistranslation of a passage in Holy Scripture.
We are sheep, but we are reason endowed sheep. This is why Christ asked us to be as harmless as doves and as wise as serpents. And this is why the Apostles warn us to depart from anyone acting disorderly and not according to Holy Tradition. We are not judging someone by knowing they are walking "disorderly" and not according to Holy Tradition.
And this is important because the path you are going down, and I have seen it before with my own new-calendar friends, leads directly to not "judging" the heresies of bishops. As for these men, the Good Shepherd has forewarned us that many of them are robbers and thieves who do not enter by the gate. The rational sheep follow the good shepherd
"for they know his voice. And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him, for they know not the voice of strangers" (John 10:4-5).
I know that what you're saying makes sense, OOD, but I still don't know that I agree wholly with what you're saying. Not as it pertains to my own conduct, at least. There are lots of practices (especially ascetic and monastic ones) that seem illogical, but are nonetheless Orthodox. Non-judgment (including even noticing someone's error apart from any intentional personal/emotional judgment) is not unallowed (especially for people like me who have a hard time seperating myself from the passions).
I'll clarify that, though, by saying that this doesn't include heresy. The same desert fathers who say that you should try to avoid eve noticing sin in your brother will also (usually) say that you should flee heresy at all costs. The irony is, from my position, a defense of what I'm saying is hypocritical. I'm trying to make a dispassionate judgment about a practical part of the Christian life, and arguing against a different perspective. I'm therefore condemned by my own words that I've before said!