Traditional Orthodoxy

[Pravoslavnik]

I sympathize with your predicament, because I have experienced similar struggles during my life as an Orthodox Christian. I do not have a pat answer, but I can tell you that, when the going has been tough, I have always found it very comforting to read the sayings of the Desert Fathers (Apothegmata Patrum.) St. Anthony the Great, and the other Fathers of the desert, always emphasized the spiritual importance of humility and reverence for the Church. They also defended the true faith, when necessary, as in their defense of St. Athanasios, and focused on their own sins and transgressions, rather than those of others. It is easy for us to fall into a kind of triumphalism, readily judging everyone regarding their Orthodox--or heterodox--praxis, like the Pharisees in the time of Christ. Remember, though, that we should, above all, love God, and love our neighbor. All of the "law" of God derives from these two basic commandments. The point of praxis--how we fast, chant, stand at vigils, make prostrations, etc.--is to move closer to God in this world and the next...

[Helen]

You're just starting out. Pray to God to find you a good spiritual guide or at least someone who can help you find the Orthodox way according to the Fathers. I don't know how to articulate the correct confession of Orthodoxy, but one thing I do know is that God will never leave you if you are seeking the truth. You may not find it straight away but be sure that if you're really seeking God's truth, He will show you in His time and according to how much you are ready . And pray that He shows you His truth and not your truth, or someone else's, but His truth - so be wary. As for canons, from what I've heard from others more experienced than I in these matters: canons are not a recipe or a checklist to get you into heaven, canons are also meant to be understood ie., why were they written?, what was the context ? etc. In point of fact, there are people who specialise in canon law (called canonists). If using canon's was as simple as applying ingredients to a recipe then perhaps there would be no need for experts. I think this shows that maybe when we start applying canons we don't really see the whole picture. You can double check me on this - find out for yourself if what I am saying is really true. You can always write to other priests any around the world that would be more than happy to help you out in any of your spiritual dilemma's. Just don't commit to anyone too soon - (a spiritually healthy person will not require immediate commitment). And PS - there are many priests in "World Orthodoxy" who are very spiritual and practice traditional Orthodoxy according to the Fathers of the Church, even though your priest may not be one of them. I'm not advocating only World Orthodox priests, I'm just saying look on both sides.
Ps I'm not saying that canons are not to be abided by, just saying they should be abided by with discretion.

[joasia]

Welcome Michael,

It's good to ask question in order to find the truth.

I heard that when Patriarch Alexei heard that a priest had performed a same sex marriage, he defrocked the priest, ordered the church where he had done it destroyed and had it rebuilt.

I also read an article where there was a priest who opened the reception hall as a night club for the teenagers to go and party on Friday and Saturday nights. He says that it's better than going out to the clubs in the city, but is it really? This is the sacred place of God. And this is a supposed priest. The Pat. didn't do anything about this.

The Truth is always present. We just have to want to see it and it will be clear. Many people confuse themselves because they fall into grey areas.

First, I was not baptized by sprinkling. I had water poured over my head, and the priest (who is a notorious modernist) said "I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."

Pouring on the head just means more water, but it is not baptism. If doctors persist in telling us to take the antibiotics for 10 days and not to reduce that or else we will not get rid of the infection, then how much more important is it to be correct in our spiritual medication. Christ was the example. He was baptised by St. John the Baptist. Are we to do less and consider it enough? Would we allow a surgeon to do an operation and skip many steps and have confidence that it was done in it's full capacity?

I never blew to the West three times to reject Satan and my former faith, and neither did my girlfriend when she was made a catechumen.

Why not. That is part of the catechumen service. You have to renounce your former belief. Read the explanations from this website. Clik on the asteriks below to bring you to that section. Scroll down to the part of the exorcism.

http://www.orthodox.net/articles/baptism.html

I understand what you're saying, but there seems to be two conflicting views. One is that hell is a place where God isn't

That's the papist heresy. Fire and brimstone.

and the other is that everyone will be with God, and His presence will be bliss to those that love him and torment to those that hate him.

That is the Orthodox view. The souls that reject Christ, when in the flesh, are living a personal spiritual agony...they just don't realize it fully. But, when they die. They will see the truth, but it will be too late. They will, then, feel the agony in it's fullness. Whereas those who live in God, feel the spiritual blessing and when they die will live it in fullness.

and the other is that everyone will be with God, and His presence will be bliss to those that love him and torment to those that hate him.

That is the ecumenist arguement. Ecumenism defies Christ's authority as King. They believe that there is no one authority but a general cosmic union. Christ is the only way to God's Kingdom. Christ was born in the flesh and present amongst His creations. And Christ, Himself told the people that He is the Way. He didn't say that it's okay to be somewhere else. If so-called Christians are going to argue for ecumenism, then they aren't even believing in the Holy Bible with Christ's teachings. They are heretics.

And since there is no salvation outside the Orthodox Church, does that mean that everyone who isn't Orthodox will be tormented by God's presence? I'd say that there are very few people out there today who actively hate God. Does this mean that most people are saved?

Everybody will be judged, by God, according to their faith. And their distance of faith will be the torment. And there are plenty of people who willingly reject God... and I dare say hate. Just ask someone, you know who doesn't believe in Christ and ask him to come to church with you. If they don't hate God, then they shouldn't have a problem. But, observe their immediate irritation of the idea of going to Church. That, right there, is the indication, that their souls reject God and if that isn't hate then I don't know what is, because if I oppose something, I will reject it with all my being. People want to create a world of grey areas, but when you give them a challenge, they, all of a sudden, see it in black and white.

Also, a Serbian guy I talk to on Yahoo Messenger told me that he's heard Old Calendarists say "Those who accept the new papal calendar will have boiling lead poured in their throats in Hell".

Obviously, it's not a literal term, but I don't know what context he was referring to. But, I've never heard the saints say that. Although they have made other comments. Read the saints. It's your only safe reference to the truth.

How could someone even say this if hell is the way sinners experience God's love?

God's love is always present. That is a fact. How people experience it, can be torment, when they reject the truth which is Jesus Christ. Let's go beyond the boiling lead. That is an earthly description and doesn't even come close to the real torment that the soul experiences. It's a billion times worse.

But, I think you are holding on to a papist view that God instigates the torment. It's not His punishment on us for being bad children. It's our souls realizing that we went the wrong way.

How many times have you kick yourself for making the wrong choice? We suffer for our own decisions, one way or another, but it is experienced in our hearts. In the meantime, Christ is always suffering with us because we are in pain because we don't want to see. God isn't punishing us for our lack of faith, we are. And He is always trying to show us the path to Him.

Once we start to understand that the struggle is our own faith, then we will come to see that need to turn to Christ. When we do that..He will immediately guide us.

Relinquish the idea that God punishes us and embrace the understanding that we are keeping ourselves in spiritual torment because we resist Him. And if we are in that state when we die, where else can we end up except in a place where we feel God's ultimate presence, but we refused it?

I wish I could express it better, but it's difficult to express something that I feel which cannot be put into words. It just comes out in these awkward ways. You have to experience it for yourself.

In Christ, Joanna