We should become peasants.

[Seraphim Reeves]

My wife seems to be something of an "Oprah addict" (groan), and one day when I came home from work she was watching the end of an episode about the Amish (in particular, about Amish who eventually left the community). I saw a little bit of this show, and it touched on exactly what Nicholas has wrote - how in their late teens, they're pretty much allowed to run free, with a blind eye turned away from their less savory extra-curricular activities (in which fornication is not uncommon.) One problem with this behaviour, in the modern west, is that it can be quite serious (and paradoxically, the "oh, i'm getting baptized later" mindset seems to make it all the worse, since it gives a certain sense of justification in one's bad behaviour) - the young woman on the show (who had left the community) revealed that her one time fiance ended up in prison.

I think this strange phenomenon of letting the youngins "sowe their oats" is the source for the bizarre stories in the news about amish youth getting busted for being involved in drug rings and other behaviour we don't traditionally associate with Amish/Mennonites, etc.

Seraphim

[Mary Kissel]

Methodius, in reply to your first post, I think that all you've said would be a good idea, I agree that it would be really hard and also, as Justin has said, people like me would need to have access to medicines to keep us alive...so we need to keep that in mind as well. I love the idea though of women teaching the children and sewing and such stuff like that while the men do the farming and barn raising and the like. I also think it would be very wise to have a full time priest there to help guide this all, and we'd need the bishop's blessing as well. I love the idea that the community would be Church/Christ centered and would have Vespers nightly and other various Church services, this would definetly help in our spiritual lives and help us grow spiritually as well and we could be an example to those not in our community just like the monastics are, through prayer for example. This would be hard to do definetly without all the modern luxeries that we are used to currently...we would need to support eachother in this decision and not turn on one another either...that would help out a lot I think. This is definetly something that we all should pray long and hard about as well.

In Christ,
MaryCecilia

[Logos]

My wife seems to be something of an "Oprah addict" (groan), and one day when I came home from work she was watching the end of an episode about the Amish (in particular, about Amish who eventually left the community). I saw a little bit of this show, and it touched on exactly what Nicholas has wrote - how in their late teens, they're pretty much allowed to run free, with a blind eye turned away from their less savory extra-curricular activities (in which fornication is not uncommon.) One problem with this behaviour, in the modern west, is that it can be quite serious (and paradoxically, the "oh, i'm getting baptized later" mindset seems to make it all the worse, since it gives a certain sense of justification in one's bad behaviour) - the young woman on the show (who had left the community) revealed that her one time fiance ended up in prison.

I think this strange phenomenon of letting the youngins "sowe their oats" is the source for the bizarre stories in the news about amish youth getting busted for being involved in drug rings and other behaviour we don't traditionally associate with Amish/Mennonites, etc.

Seraphim

I may sound like Polyanna here, but I shock to here that the Amish do this. One would not expect this from them. I guess this is another example of how some people are good at pretending to be pious on the outside yet on the inside all that is there is a rotting corspe. Kind of like what Jesus said about the Pharisees.

(and paradoxically, the "oh, i'm getting baptized later" mindset seems to make it all the worse, since it gives a certain sense of justification in one's bad behaviour)

I agree with you totally Seraphim. What it creates is a credit card mentality toward sin. Sin now, pay your debt when you are baptized and it is all okay. The thing is, it is possible for these young people to die before they are baptized. They are not immortal. Frankly, I don't agree with this practice of adult baptism because of this wild oat thing and that if you die before you are baptized then you are in some serious, quite serious trouble.

[Miss Anastasia]

I would like to live in a town like this. We read about prarie towns in school. There is a country school where all the kids go and are taught by one or two of the women and they get out of school for planting and harvesting the crops.

We would have to have sheep for clothing and all the girls do this. The toddlers seperate strands while the girls comb it and the older girls run the wheel. I learned how to do this and it was fun. The teenagers then make clothes with the moms.

The boys sometimes help with this or help the dads with the crops. They taught us that you can have donkies horses or ox pull the plow that the man stands on. If there is a drought other men sit on the plow to make it dig good. The ox is slow but strong while a donkey is fast and not so strong. The horse is in the middle of them.

Would this town have a dinner house or would everyone eat in their homes?

[尼古拉前执事]

:arrow: I have to admit that I am suprised that so many people like this idea. It makes one think that it could actually work to make an Orthodox community like this, especially since there's not that whole Amish adult Baptism thing in such a community. Unless people are agreeing with the concept in theory, not practice.

[Justin Kissel]

LIUDMILLA

Even though I don't fully agree with everything you said, I think your post was a very important part of this thread. We must be realistic about such a possibility as we are discussing, and we can't fall into some unjustified romantic notions that can sometimes arise when people think about (what they perceive to be) the "good ole days". After all, if we had all lived in the "good ole days" of a hundred years ago, my wife would have died in infancy from her heart condition: there wouldn't have been anything good about that day. Please understand the rest of my response to you with the above in mind

This idea is hardly a new one....it has been dreamed by many. It is not a truly achievable reality.

Why do you say that? I think it would be monumentally difficult for most Americans (including me), but I don't think it's impossible. Sure, the Amish have been doing it for a long time, and so they already have things "going" and their people are raised in the culture since birth, so they're better able to live such a life. Still, I think it's possible for us to follow along something akin to what they do, only with a wholly Orthodox base.

This life may be achievable in a monastic settling but hardly in a real time situation. The concerns of a monastic life are different than when you are struggling for the sake of your children and your family.

I'm not sure I understand this statement. Why isn't it possible? At one time, the overwhelming majority of people lived in the way that is being discussed, what exactly about it do you find unrealistic?

The answer lies not in denying yourself the comforts of modern life, but in knowing how to utilize those comforts, in knowing which ones are best avoided and which ones are "needful".

But I don't want to utilize comforts When I read about the saints, I read about them doing things to purposely cause themselves discomfort. I can't go to that extent, sinner that I am, but I would like to go in that direction at least. With that in mind, I don't want to properly utilize comforts, but I want to get them out of my life. Such a life would be harder, yes: but that's the point. It's not just about "fleeing the world," but the actual hard life and discomfort in itself would be beneficial.

This is what the whole of the monastic life teaches us, but the principle is not just applicable to monks. We find even in writings addressed to the laity discussions about sleeping on the ground, strict fasting when possible, and so forth.

Did you ever consider that maybe your being Orthodox in the world will influence someone else to become Orthodox? and by isolating yourself out in the middle of no where you will not be fulfilling God's purpose?

I could only answer what the solitary hermit might answer out in the woods in the middle of nowhere

MaryCecilia K

Methodius, in reply to your first post, I think that all you've said would be a good idea, I agree that it would be really hard and also, as Justin has said, people like me would need to have access to medicines to keep us alive...so we need to keep that in mind as well.

I've been thinking about this, and I think it might also be a good idea to consider having a telephone at some type of community center (library?). I think an automobile might also be of use, for mostly emergeny or transport situations. These are "concessions" that even monastics (from CA to Athos) make in the modern world.

I also still think we need more of a cash flow. What happens if there's a natural disaster, for instance, and we have to rebuild? What if we want to build a new building? We'd need to buy the material, at the very least. I know we can't be overly concerned with monetary issues, but I think it's important that we have an idea of what our costs are going to be going in, and how we are going to generate money? We'd also have to consider health issues. Will anyone have medical insurance? If not, how do we pay for someone going to the doctor or hospital? How do we pay for meds?

Anastasia

Would this town have a dinner house or would everyone eat in their homes?

I dunno, what do y'all think? I an think of a number of ways that a community gathering place would be beneficial. First, it would promote community and togetherness, and would allow us to grow closer together. Second, it would make keeping stock of the foods available easier as all the food could be stored and served in one place, at particular times in the day. Third, such a situation would help us more to control our bellies, as opposed to "sneaking a snack" through the day.

Nicholas

I have to admit that I am suprised that so many people like this idea. It makes one think that it could actually work to make an Orthodox community like this

Ahh... there are five main questions here. First, is a priest absolutely necessary before this can get underway (I don't think that one is, when you consider that the overwhelming number of missions are priestless, many being formed knowing that they'd have no priest for many years, if they ever got a priest). We can't expect a priest to join such a community (or a bishop to assign one) if we are only talking about a dozen or two dozen people, after all. At least, not at first (not before it's been demonstrated that this isn't just a dream, but can actually work). Second, how many people will this require for it to start? Can 5-6 people start something like this, or do you need a base of dozens? Or something in between? Third, where will this be done at, in the midwest? South? Not in the U.S.? Fourth, what type of time frame are we looking at here? Such an endeavor would necessitate the raising of quite a large amount of money, not to mention gaining certain skills and abilities. Are we talking about 2 years from now, or 6? Fifth, how many people who are posting here, or who we have contact with, would genuinely be interested in really, actually doing this? I'm not, of course, saying that only people who will actually do this should participate on the thread, but let's not overestimate the response, we need to determine how many people are trying to be helpful, and how many people are really going to be willing to do this.

As to the last question, all I can say is that my wife and I will pray about it. Maybe in the future--if answers through prayers direct--we will discuss this with our spiritual father. Anyone else ready to speak up as to yea or nay?

Justin

[Logos]

Anyone else ready to speak up as to yea or nay?

Well, I will give you my honest opinion since you have asked. I think while it is a good idea, for me it would be a bad thing. A community like this will tend to be full of people who are married and have families. In other words there would be nothing there for the single folk.