ACROD and Uniate consecration of altar

[gbmtmas]

Slava Isusu Hristu!

But you see OOD that there is not only a close cultural patrimony between these Jurisdictions, but also a spiritual patrimony. Being a traditional Orthodox Christian never implied that one should have a lack of manners and decency. I am wondering if it is becoming standard praxis to Anathametize everyone except oneself. Metropolitan Schott is the spiritual leader for a body of Christian people. To say he is an arch-layman et al in a condescending tone is wrong. We have to give Byzantine Catholics some credit: at least they are trying to learn more about the East and become fully Eastern; and they cannot be guilty for the historical reasons for the schisms. Orthodoxy does not need cheap polemitics to defend it; it neither needs defense nor mandates it. Orthodox Christians are a peaceable people and we should gently call the Eastern Catholics to union with us, to the pleroma of Grace and Life that is Orthodoxy. Being rigid and scornful of Eastern Catholics and their leaders will neither help them to approach the fulless of Orthodoxy, nor see the efficacy of it, since what they are hearing is mostly alot of hate. And I can't say I would not encourage them to stay where they are if all they hear from traditional Orthodox is bigotry and ignorance. I have been guilty on more than one occassion of being judgemental towards the Eastern Catholics and their Church, but Lord Have Mercy may I be delivered from all sense of wrath and pride. God forgive me.

In Christ our God,

Alexis, Chief Sinner

Thank you for saying this Alexis. These words are well spoken .

In Christ,
gbmtmas

[OrthodoxyOrDeath]

Alaskan,

Well I for one share in just about everything you said - indeed, well spoken.

But I consider your characterizations of the position the Church has always taken with regard to those outside of Her as "anathematizing everyone", being a bigot, hateful, "rigid and scornful" as the definition of a strawman if I have ever seen it; as if I or the Church does not share in your desire to see these men come to the truth!

What I find hateful of these Uniates, who deserve nothing but our pity, is a position which ignores reality, violates the Holy Canons, and uses a blasphemous rouse and a lie as a tool of “love”.

Your issue does not seem to be in the admission that I may love these Uniates as much as anyone could; it seems you just cannot tolerate anyone being pessimistic and distrustful about your contemporary “hierarchs” who have so far only proved their ability to apostasize. For people who speak such as you about bigotry, the heretics of the various sects are your Christian brothers from whom they were separated by the "egotisms", "narrow-mindedness", and "bigot" Fathers of bygone eras. You may admit that there are dogmatical differences, but these differences shall be overcome by love, or to speak more openly, they shall be forgotten by love.

How can you shamelessly claim that you have more love in your heart than did the Saints who were not able with their love to overcome the barriers which divided them from heresy, but on the contrary, they made these barriers higher so they could protect the sheep from the wolves? How can you say that your love is superior to all the Holy Fathers of the Church who in their wisdom and love wrote the canons instructing you that there are to be no concelebrations such as this?

[CGW]

Were not Anglican bishops on the altar during the consecration of the former Metropolitan Vitaly of the Russian Church Abroad?

Perhaps they stood off to one side, so as not to get their Anglican cooties on the "table".

I sang in the choir at the consecration of an Orthodox church once, so I assume that church is "invalid" too.

[PFC Nektarios]

The mere fact that he was there observing and praying with a non-Orthodox, or a Non-Catholic is wrong. The Byzantine Bishop should have never been there in the 1st place.

In Christ
A Byzantine Catholic

[Aristokles]

The mere fact that he was there observing and praying with a non-Orthodox, or a Non-Catholic is wrong. The Byzantine Bishop should have never been there in the 1st place.

In Christ
A Byzantine Catholic

Hi, ByzCath.
This certainly is OLD news and a tired topic. If you wish there are about 15 or 20 pages in the archives on the Indiana List about this, complete with invectives, polemics, and rebuttals. I agree the Church Messenger article was poorly written and could lead one to read more into what happened than reality. (I called three people who were there to get the straight story and am not worried at all.) Instead of looking at this as us praying with non-Orthodox, look at it as they praying with us.

Demetri

[Seraphim Reeves]

Keble,

Perhaps they stood off to one side, so as not to get their Anglican cooties on the "table".

I sang in the choir at the consecration of an Orthodox church once, so I assume that church is "invalid" too.

If you really believe the reasoning for the "traditionalist" position is this childish, or superficial, then I am very disheartened.

Seraphim

[Seraphim Reeves]

Alaskan,

But you see OOD that there is not only a close cultural patrimony between these Jurisdictions, but also a spiritual patrimony. Being a traditional Orthodox Christian never implied that one should have a lack of manners and decency. I am wondering if it is becoming standard praxis to Anathametize everyone except oneself. Metropolitan Schott is the spiritual leader for a body of Christian people. To say he is an arch-layman et al in a condescending tone is wrong.

There is so much confusion here.

You are very correct, Alaskan - too often, it seems the "traditionalists" are not very kind in the choice of words they use to speak of non-Orthodox. While such words are often (strictly speaking) correct, good manners and charity often make it an offence to say, no matter the context, everything that is on one's mind (even if it is in fact, materially "true".) There is a time for war, and a time for peace - a time for harsh words, but also times for a more irenic, gentle tone.

The problem however, the confusion, in this situation, is that gentleness and kindness are being confused with the blurring of ecclessiastical lines. What inherent "kindness" is there, in receiving a non-Orthodox clergyman, not simply as a Bishop, but having him assume postures and perform acts which cannot but confuse his actual standing in relation to the Orthodox Church? The sad fact is, bp.Schott is not Orthodox - perhaps he is privately in his beliefs, but officially no...neither in creed, nor in terms of who he keeps communion with.

I don't think there is anything "kind" in what those pictures portray. There is no kindness to him, and certainly not to the simple who see such things and (even without explanation - and this is what the more rabid ecumenists are banking on, so as to not openly incriminate themselves) make the reasonable deductions that such acts imply.

Had he been simply an observer, this would be one thing - but I find it hard to imagine anyone defending his actually being present in the Altar, let alone the permitting of so much as the appearance of concelebration.

Seraphim