Capability of unbaptized people

The practice of living the life in Christ: fasting, vigil lamps, head-coverings, family life, icon corners, and other forms of Orthopraxy. All Forum Rules apply.


Post Reply
User avatar
Cornelius
Newbie
Posts: 10
Joined: Tue 11 November 2025 4:45 pm
Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Inquiring

Capability of unbaptized people

Post by Cornelius »

From The Way into the Kingdom of Heaven by St. Innocent of Alaska:
In summary, it is impossible to enter the Kingdom of Heaven or even come close to it without the assistance of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, we should implore the Holy Spirit with all earnestness to come dwell in us and help us, just as He helped the Holy Apostles.
(The entire "How Jesus Christ helps us" section is relevant.)

From my current understanding, there is the grace that God gifts to all people that brings them to faith, (as St. Paul states in I Corinthians 12:3) and the grace which is imparted to those who are baptised, chrisimated, and in ascetic labor. From my reading, I'm getting the impression that there's only so far one can progress in spiritual life without these. Not that it's pointless to pray and struggle in virtue, but that it's like trying to run a marathon with your shoelaces tied together.

Aside from making one's biggest goal to become regenerate, what should one's conduct and mindset be until that point?

Living a 'life by counsel' is good, but can be difficult. Striking a balance to actually feel struggle, but sustainably, I've found difficult. St. Ignatius Brianchaninov very strongly warns against unfeasibly long prayer rules, because one will burn out and fall into despair. The questions of "how much? Am I strong enough for this? Am I sparing myself from self-love?" are tricky to answer.

I don't ask for specifics. (I know giving out such advice on the internet can go very, very wrong.) But, I've found lately, that I'm constantly confused and flip-flopping. I don't know what direction to take, until I can be baptised. (This may take quite a while in my case.) I don't know what I should realistically expect of myself. Is there any writing, or help, or other material that deals with this problem?

If my understanding is totally off, or I'm asking for something unreasonable/not wise, forgive me. This seems to me like the best place to ask this.

'It were indeed meet for us not at all to require the aid of the written Word, but to exhibit a life so pure, that the Grace of the Spirit should be instead of books to our souls, and that as these are inscribed with ink, even so should our hearts be with the Spirit. But, since we have utterly put away from us this Grace, come, let us at any rate embrace the second best course.'
—St. John Chrysostom, Homily I on Matthew

User avatar
Barbara
Archon
Posts: 5642
Joined: Sat 29 September 2012 6:03 pm

Re: Capability of unbaptized people

Post by Barbara »

What is it you are flipfloping about, Cornelius ?

User avatar
Cornelius
Newbie
Posts: 10
Joined: Tue 11 November 2025 4:45 pm
Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Inquiring

Re: Capability of unbaptized people

Post by Cornelius »

Barbara wrote: Tue 3 March 2026 12:29 am

What is it you are flipfloping about, Cornelius ?

Many things I argue with myself about, but prayer and fasting I was struggling with. I constantly had the question of "how much?" and never could settle for an answer.
As of writing, I think I've hit a stable point in these, thankfully. The best guides right now are conscience, patience, and trial-and-error experience. I trust in God, no matter how long it takes for baptism to come. In the mean time, I hope to try my best.

I still don't know much when it comes to the experiential difference between baptized and unbaptized, so if I am erring, I don't want to keep sailing with a faulty compass.

'It were indeed meet for us not at all to require the aid of the written Word, but to exhibit a life so pure, that the Grace of the Spirit should be instead of books to our souls, and that as these are inscribed with ink, even so should our hearts be with the Spirit. But, since we have utterly put away from us this Grace, come, let us at any rate embrace the second best course.'
—St. John Chrysostom, Homily I on Matthew

User avatar
Barbara
Archon
Posts: 5642
Joined: Sat 29 September 2012 6:03 pm

Re: Capability of unbaptized people

Post by Barbara »

That's a beautiful Icon you chose !
That bodes well for your entire future !!

What did you find when you over-fasted, for example ? Please convey your experience so others can benefit without having to make the same corrections to their patterns and quantities of prayer and fasting and such things ?

User avatar
Cornelius
Newbie
Posts: 10
Joined: Tue 11 November 2025 4:45 pm
Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Inquiring

Re: Capability of unbaptized people

Post by Cornelius »

Barbara wrote: Tue 3 March 2026 4:44 pm

That's a beautiful Icon you chose !
That bodes well for your entire future !!

What did you find when you over-fasted, for example ? Please convey your experience so others can benefit without having to make the same corrections to their patterns and quantities of prayer and fasting and such things ?

Thank you!

All I feel comfortable saying about my experience, so far, is that it's easy to fall into two things:

  1. Casuistry. Trying to define, in almost scientific amounts, the effort one must put in, instead of using one's heart.
  2. Trying to impress oneself, or sticking to something out of stubbornness.

There was a fair amount of under-fasting and under-praying, too. I cannot give advice, but the Fathers seem to use athletic metaphors often. I'm starting to think of spiritual capability in the same way. You need to put in enough struggle to truly improve. You need to be committed and consistent, not setting milestones you can't keep up.

It's a means to an end, ultimately, not an end in itself. The means are important, but I ended up falling into an empty form of godliness. Since God is the One Who grants the increase (I Cor. 3:6) I just have to remind myself to not trust so much in myself. God desires our salvation, and I can't earn it myself. All I can do is listen and be patient.

'It were indeed meet for us not at all to require the aid of the written Word, but to exhibit a life so pure, that the Grace of the Spirit should be instead of books to our souls, and that as these are inscribed with ink, even so should our hearts be with the Spirit. But, since we have utterly put away from us this Grace, come, let us at any rate embrace the second best course.'
—St. John Chrysostom, Homily I on Matthew

Post Reply