“The Jewish people”

[NadirGP]

Lydia wrote:

Well said, Symeon, I agree with you whole-heartedly.
I think it is pointless to confront such bigotry. That the sources which Nadir references have been thoroughly discredited doesn't seem to matter. Shahak fabricated much of his "information." And for a Roman Catholic to rely on the judgment of a homosexual, atheist and convicted libeler as Gore Vidal is simply shameful.

Lydia,
Apart from Gore Vidal – who is not even the real author of the book, Jewish History, Jewish Religion: The Weight of 3,000 Years, but Israel Shahak is – are also Arthur Koestler, Benjamin H. Freedman, Harold Wallace Rosenthal, Israel Adam Shamir, and Jack Berstein to be dismissed only because, all of them told things that you and Symeon don’t like to hear?

As for ‘Shahak fabricated much of his "information."’ Documentation, please.
Who is the bigot here, you or them?
Nadir

Nadir, calm down.

Lydia did not call you a bigot. This is what she said, "I think it is pointless to confront such bigotry."
An ad hominem attacks the member. She was attacking what she perceives to be bigotry in the material you had copied.

Your question, "Who is the bigot here, you or them?" is also not an ad hominem as it is a question, not a declarative statement.

However, we all must be careful when posting not to imply that someone is a bigot.

Maria
E. Cafe Moderator

Maria,
Message received.
Thank you again for everything.

The lowest point, Nadir
Lord have mercy on me...a sinner

[Maria]

Here is what our Holy Father among the Saints, Saint Isaac the Syrian would say to admonish us in well doing rather than this unedifying discussion that does NOT honour God:

Blessed is the man who has kept well this good seed once it has fallen into his soul, and has given it increase, and has not lost it by scattering it in vain concerns and in the distractions of transient and fleeting things! But to our God be glory unto the ages. Amen.

---conclusion of Homily 49, p.240; The Ascetical Homilies of Saint Isaac the Syrian, HTM Press, 1984.

This is so true, Symeon. In these End Times, it is important to prepare because we do not know when Christ will come again. The devil would like us to focus on political issues, when there is little we can do about them. Although the rich and powerful might have control of the banking, real estate, and food industries, they cannot take away our faith. We must preserve until the end. Thus, your signature is also very important to study, as we have done somewhere on this forum. Do you remember that thread?

However, if you can help Nadir with his struggle and help him to see what exactly St. John Chrysostom was saying, that would be of great help.

[joasia]

Nadir,

It's one thing to write about this from a worldly perspective, but when you list the saints and what they wrote as if they are hating the Jews then you are out of line. They spoke out for the sake of truth, but not with hatred. How can God accept them as saints if they have hatred in their hearts? That's the first thing that keeps us far from God. They were writing or speaking in their time, but we read it in our time and it's a different effect. You need to read it in the context of what was happening at the time. That's the problem with people who try to interpret writings with their own views, their interpretations are always wrong.

And this thread is for Orthodox discussions, not political polemics. If you're looking for a sympathetic ear of hatred then it doesn't belong in these threads.

joasia,

I posted what the Church Fathers say about the Jews, just as they come in print in the books and from the internet. There is no hatred there, as you said there is, nor is in myself. You read them – and me - wrongly, because you are projecting on the Fathers of Church what is not there.

As I said, I do see that you are reading the Holy Fathers incorrectly. Their writings and sayings are not meant to support your attack on Jews. They were meant to wake people up to the truth of Jesus Christ as the Saviour (Messiah) for our salvation.

[Matthew]

If someone is especially troubled by the controversy over, What is the Orthodox Christian response to the "Jewish Question," as it concerns the reading of what Saint John Chrysostom has written in the mid-300s, I can recommend as a good primer the book:

John Chrysostom and the Jews: Rhetoric and Reality in the late 4th Century, by Robert L. Wilken.

I have this book because I was concerned about many of the things I had read by the likes of David Duke, Israel Shahak, Diana Spingola, etc.

If someone is truly a sincere seeker of truth, they will not excuse themselves from taking the trouble to order this book and read it. Otherwise by their lethargy towards purchasing this book they show themselves to simply want to protect their misguided and pre-determined belief that St. John Chrysostom's statements on the Jews validate the modern proponents of the idea that all Jews are supremacists that think we are "cattle that exist to serve them," and if there get to be too many goys then we will just "cull the herd" by arranging a few profitable wars via false flag terror attack operations like 911 to off a few tens of millions of them.

NadirGP will enjoy reading this well written book that puts these statements of St John Chrysostomos into much needed perspective.

By God's mercy,
Symeon

[Lydia]

If you want to talk to me, in a decent way, of course, and not in way you are doing to me now, that is, as a troll,

Why would you say that? She's been here longer than you. You've posted only for a month.

Joasia,

So because Lydia has longer standing with this forum she is allowed to give me name of bigot; but I am not allowed to say she is a troll – after she labels me a bigot, merely because I publish the truth.
Now, tell me, is this all about trying to have this thread locked?

I have no quarrel with you, Nadir. The objections I have are to the articles you link. You say they are the truth, but you have no proof that they are. These people, whether they are Jewish or not, have their own axes to grind and many of them have been thoroughly discredited.

[joasia]

If you want to talk to me, in a decent way, of course, and not in way you are doing to me now, that is, as a troll,

Why would you say that? She's been here longer than you. You've posted only for a month.

Joasia,

So because Lydia has longer standing with this forum she is allowed to give me name of bigot; but I am not allowed to say she is a troll – after she labels me a bigot, merely because I publish the truth. Now, tell me, is this all about trying to have this thread locked?

She was referring to your sources. They are questionable. Do you have any Orthodox saint sources that wrote about what the Holy Fathers wrote/said about this topic?

[Matthew]

Here is an "off thread topic" post that is more "on Forum Topic" and certainly far more edifying and spiritually beneficial toward our eternal salvation and the day we sinners must face our personal judgement than most of the exposés about the purported misdeeds of Jews that has been "courageously" quoted here by Nadir:

Here is consolation above all consolations! Here is consolation for those broken by tempest. Let them only remember that Christ is among them, and let them not be afraid. He is the Helmsman.

Here is the consolation for those in pain. Let them know that Christ is there by their bed, and let them not despair. He is the Healer.

Here is consolation for the old. Let them not lose sight of the fact that Christ goes with them through the years right to eternity and eternal youth, and let them be at peace.
Here is consolation for those who are tormented by men. Let them not think that they are left alone, for Christ is with them in all their pain, and at their judgment, and in prison; and let them rejoice. He is the Judge.

Here is consolation for those tormented by evil spirits. Let them remember that Christ, the Conqueror of evil spirits, is on their side, and let them be strengthened. He is the Victor.

Here is consolation for those who seek the light of righteousness and truth. Let them believe that Christ is closer to their souls than to their eyes, and let them follow His leading. He is the Light.

Oh, my brethren, Christ is truly always with us, as a light that is ever present to the eyes of those who look, But, to our loss, if the eyes of our soul are closed, then the light seeks in vain to encounter the pupil of our eye! Oh, what sorrow and grief is ours when we are not with Christ!

He comes to meet us - do we go to meet Him? He desires to be with us - do we desire to be with Him? If we desire consolation, we must be with Him every day to the end of our lives.

O Lord, our only Consoler, do not leave us! To Thee be glory and praise forever.

Bishop Nikolai Velimirovic
"The Prologue from Ochrid"

Please, people! Turn your gaze towards Christ and the words of Life, and not upon these unprofitable and interminable questions about material things of transitory concern. I must permanently bow out at this point of engaging further in any discussions over temporal issues as my being drawn into these subjects (which proliferate on this otherwise Orthodox forum) is robbing me of entering into a deeper prayer life. Of course, that is my fault. If certain places and things are a consistent temptation, in the end, I must flee from them. I can only invite others to wake up and follow suit.

With brotherly good will,

Symeon